Jaime O
Re: Rohl and the Exodus
Sat May 12, 2018 07:37
85.138.200.20

Hello Marianne, Toby

Thank you both for your comments.

Marianne wrote: “This [Ramses = Sesi = Sysq] as a "cornerstone" for a theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither in the Hebrew or Egyptian languages have I ever heard of a custom of putting a /q/ at the end of a name.”

You’ll find many critics of Rohl and James who agree with you. I disagree with the proposal on grounds other than linguistic. Anyway, if you wish to read more on the matter to fully understand the linguistic correspondence proposed by Rohl and defended by others, you can read a bit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Rohl)#Shishaq; and here http://www.academia.edu/13445926/The_Name_Shishaq_Shoshenq_or_Shyshu_q_Responding_to_the_Critics_and_Assessing_the_Evidence_in_P._James_and_P._van_der_Veen_eds._Solomon_and_Shishak_BAR_International_Series_2732_Archaeopress_Oxford_2015.

Toby: I appreciate your comments on the Israel stele. However, it doesn’t answer my question to you: what could ‘laid in waste’, or ‘devastated’, mean in this new context? Rohl’s own chronology had Merneptah reigning about 865, which corresponds to Ahab and Jehoshaphat in his timeline. Also, you seem to be stuck on this point: “The relief shows that Israel had chariots. Chariots were first introduced to Israel by David and Solomon”. This might have rather been originally an upgrade on ancient Israelite warfare. I’m pretty sure chariots are already mentioned in the book of Judges.

Toby wrote: “The few pharaoh's mentioned by name in the Bible are not much help. On the other hand, if we were to throw out all king's lists, our Assyrian chronology would be pretty sterile itself.”

I’m not sure what you mean. All the pharaohs who are named in the Old Testament have an historical context. Shishaq’s campaign is dated to early Rehoboam, which has to be during the 10th Century by any reckoning. Hoshea rebelled against Assyria after the death of Tiglath-Pileser III and conspired with King So, so this pharaoh must have lived around 725. Tirhakah of Ethiopia from 2 Kings and Isaiah is active in c.700, at the exact time we know the future pharaoh Taharqa was involved with Egyptian military. Necho of Egypt who battled Josiah and deposed Jehoahaz in 609 is from the same time as Nekau I who battled Nebuchadnezzar. Jeremiah 44:30 predicts that Hophra of Egypt will fall to his enemies, some time after Zedekiah and Jerusalem fall. It is no coincidence that Wahibre fell to his enemies in 570.

So, what do you mean by ‘are not much help’? They are. The Pharaoh of the Exodus, on the other hand, doesn’t have any historical context. I also don’t get what you mean by ‘if we were to throw out all king's lists, our Assyrian chronology would be pretty sterile’. I didn’t state that we should totally disregard king lists. My statement was that authors like Artapanus or Josephus were inferring the identity of the Pharaoh of the Exodus from their calculations of the Jewish chronology, and that a name was taken from king lists, namely Manetho. Their guesses are not any better than ours.

IMHO, the Pharaoh of the Exodus does not seem historical. A lack of evidence for the Exodus and its miraculous account makes the Pharaoh fit much better into the category of a legendary figure. From a literary point of view, the Pharaoh fits quite neatly into the group of earthly authorities who contradict or persecute God’s elected prophets throughout the Old Testament. You’ll see this trope in the stories of King Ahab and Elijah, Jonah and the King of Nineveh, or Ezekiel and Jeremiah whose warnings get ignored or shutdown by contemporaries.

Toby also wrote: “A key Pharaoh list, used by Rohl, in this regard (the Exodus) was in a papyrus attributed to Ramsesses himself, per wiki: 'The Turin King List (…)”

The Turin King List is nothing like Manetho’s king list, which Josephus and later chronographers used. First off, Manetho originally wrote an history book which Josephus got to read and quote. It is from Josephus that we get the narrative of Tutimaeus and how he faced invaders from the East, who turned to be the Hyksos. However, when Manetho came down to the times of Africanus and Eusebius, his work seemingly survived only in king lists based off his history. The various Assyrians King Lists and the Turin King List work on much different levels. These are not histories epitomized.

Toby, I don’t mean to hammer you on what Rohl’s theory means and implies. I expect you to know it already as you brought it up. However, you cannot say “Rohl was suggesting shifting the Hebrew Timeline” or “Rohl is NOT condensing the Egyptian Timeline.” This is the very antithesis of what Rohl and many other New Chronologists do. He treats the Hebrew timeline as fixed and moves down the Egyptian timeline, thus weaving new synchronisms. See the Wikipedia link above. In order to bring Ramses II down to the time of Rehoboam, Rohl is required to CONDENSE the Ramesside Period and the TIP. Various kings of the 20th Dynasty overlap with one another, and the 21st Dynasty overlaps with the 22nd, which in turn is reduced by some 100 years from its current timeline. Thus, Ramses II is brought down some 350 years.

PS: I’m three weeks away from ending my semester and work is starting to build up. I’ve been writing and revising replies either late at night or during lunch break. Forgive me for any faulty phrasing.

Best wishes,
Jaime

  • re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Thu May 10 09:12
    Jaime wrote: "The pet name is Sesi, or Sisa, which Rohl believes came to be written and read by the 7th Century BCE, in Hebrew, as Sysq. He is not alone, however, as James et. al use this precise... more
    • Re: Rohl and the Exodus — Jaime O, Sat May 12 07:37
      • Re: Rohl and the ExodusAnonymous, Tue May 15 00:41
        //You’ll find many critics of Rohl and James who agree with you. I disagree with the proposal on grounds other than linguistic. Anyway, if you wish to read more on the matter to fully understand the... more
      • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 01:24
        Hello Jaime, Good discussion. You wrote: "Toby: I appreciate your comments on the Israel stele. However, it doesn’t answer my question to you: what could ‘laid in waste’, or ‘devastated’, mean in... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Mon May 21 14:19
          Hello Toby, Before anything else: forgive me for the delay aaaaaand… I messed up!! Rohl’s dates for Merneptah are a bit higher, about 875. See the Wikipedia article I sent Marianne. I was working on... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Peter James, Thu May 24 04:39
            Jaime, many thanks for distinguishing the work of myself and colleagues (Centuries of Darkness) from that of a.n.other. The latter's so-called "New Chronology" is utterly impossible: Egyptian NK... more
            • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 12:03
              Hello James thank you for the reply. It's always nice to read something from you, even though we stand on opposite sides of the chronological debate. On the city of Salem - yes, it does seem like it... more
            • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Herbert Storck, Fri May 25 07:19
              Good to see you still active. I have read a couple of your more recent peer-reviewed papers and have been impressed at how your ideas and research have matured over the years. I no longer believe... more
            • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Thu May 24 18:37
              "On the name Shishak, its possible relation to a shortened version of Ramesses (III and not II!!) and other matters discussed here recently, see the papers both pro and contra in the published... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:09
            Hello Jaime, You have no need to apologize for any delay. The collegiate has the busiest schedule in life. Thanks for the fine discussion. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at... more
            • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 11:53
              Hi Toby At least we got to tackle some points. Maybe we will continue this discussion somewhere else, some other time. I can already tell the Israel stele and the Karnak relifs will intrigue you,... more
        • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Mon May 14 18:41
          "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the victories of... more
          • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:26
            Jon wrote: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
            • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:13
              Faulkner's dictionary is a good place to find where Egyptian words are attested. "fk" is given by Faulkner as "be empty" and the source he gives there is the Leiden Papyrus, "The Admonitions of a... more
              • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:40
                The Kamose text uses "fkw" in this context, which has been translated as "No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics". [bAkw stiw].
          • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 18:54
            Hello Jon, Me: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
            • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Sun May 20 20:07
              Toby, you wrote: "Ramesses, Merneptah's ancestor was likely the Pharoah that laid Israel waste. He has a relief on the Mortuary Temple at Karnak showing that. It has Egyptian and Israelie Chariots in ... more
              • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:06
                Hello Jon Smyth, Thanks for the tips on Yurco etc. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at the request of the list owner who would like this discussion relegated to the New... more
            • "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:40
              Toby wrote: "BTW, I KNOW that according to Conventional Egyptian Chronology, the chariot battle with ISrael couldn't have occured. The only way this relief makes sense is if Rameses lived 250 years... more
      • Re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 11:00
        Jaime wrote: Marianne wrote: “This [Ramses = Sesi = Sysq] as a "cornerstone" for a theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither in the Hebrew or Egyptian languages have I ever heard of a custom of... more
      • shishaW becomes shishaQToby Anderson, Sat May 12 09:55
        Hello Jaime, Marianne, I made a short video showing how the 'W' in shishaw (Ramesses birth name) became a Q in ShishaQ. I think it shows it better than the pic in the wiki website you gave Jaime. The ... more
        • Paleo-HebrewMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 11:20
          Toby: "I made a short video showing how the 'W' in shishaw (Ramesses birth name) became a Q in ShishaQ. I think it shows it better than the pic in the wiki website you gave Jaime. The glyphs for the... more
          • Paleo-HebrewToby Anderson, Sat May 12 13:11
            Marianne, You: 'OMG--you obviously don't know anything about this.' and in the earlier posting: 'As long as there are people like you around, he'll keep writing them.' Since you are acting hostile, I ... more
            • re: Paleo-HebrewMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 14:16
              Toby: You: 'OMG--you obviously don't know anything about this.' and in the earlier posting: 'As long as there are people like you around, he'll keep writing them.' I meant people that, due to lack of ... more
    • re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Thu May 10 12:12
      And here is another thing. You can't shift the time line of ancient Egypt in a radical fashion without running into problems presented by primary sources. For example, Thutmose III always left on his ... more
      • Unshifting Sands of Egyptian ChronologyToby Anderson, Thu May 10 19:49
        Hello Marianne, You wrote: "And here is another thing. You can't shift the time line of ancient Egypt in a radical fashion without running into problems..." I ---think--- you are under the wrong... more
        • Taking LicenseMarianne Luban, Thu May 10 20:55
          Toby wrote: " I ---think--- you are under the wrong impression. Rohl was not suggesting shifting the Egyptian Timeline. Rohl was suggesting shifting the Hebrew Timeline." Who asked him to? Is that... more
          • re: Taking LicenseToby Anderson, Fri May 11 08:24
            Hi Marianne, You: "Who asked him (Rohl) to? Is that the business of someone involved with Egyptology? I hardly think so." ...asked....business Are you suggesting that research should only be done is... more
            • re: Taking LicenseMarianne Luban, Fri May 11 10:22
              Toby wrote: "Are you suggesting that research should only be done is someone is asked or paid? I hope you're not implying that... for there are much better motivations such as the desire to find out... more
              • gods of EgyptAnonymous, Tue May 15 06:50
                Re Rohl: Which god of Egypt is responsible for confusion? Good points Marianne. Your comment about dynasty XX and the king of Biblos when into my notes on the accession of Saul, one year after... more
              • re: Taking LicenseToby Anderson, Fri May 11 14:00
                Since you are questioning Rohl's licensing, here it is: "In 1985 Rohl became the first Director of the Institute for the Study of Interdisciplinary Sciences (ISIS), and editor of its Journal of the... more
                • re: Taking LicenseJon Smyth, Fri May 11 17:02
                  Toby. You forgot to mention Rohl was a rock musician in the early 1970's. Ok, all joking aside, are you seriously interested in archaeology? I take it you follow Rohl's theories, but what about... more
                  • re: Taking LicenseToby Anderson, Fri May 11 22:36
                    Hello Jon, Yes archeology interests me. I've been a 'x0-moderator' on a Chronology discussion group for years, though, it is pretty dead right now. I am rather new to Egyptian chronology and I really ... more
              • re: Taking LicenseMarianne Luban, Fri May 11 10:25
                This expresses it perfectly. http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2007/05/David-Rohls-Revised-Egyptian-Chronology-A-View-From-Palestine.aspx#Article
      • re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Thu May 10 14:17
        And--oh--when it comes to Dynasty 19, everything is accurate because a new Sothic Cycle begins. Things will be even more accurate than they were in the previous Dynasty. Sothis will really rise in I... more
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