Marianne Luban
Re: Rohl and the Exodus
Sat May 12, 2018 11:00
75.169.132.210

Jaime wrote:

Marianne wrote: “This [Ramses = Sesi = Sysq] as a "cornerstone" for a theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither in the Hebrew or Egyptian languages have I ever heard of a custom of putting a /q/ at the end of a name.”

"You’ll find many critics of Rohl and James who agree with you. I disagree with the proposal on grounds other than linguistic. Anyway, if you wish to read more on the matter to fully understand the linguistic correspondence proposed by Rohl and defended by others, you can read a bit here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Rohl)#Shishaq; and here http://www.academia.edu/13445926/The_Name_Shishaq_Shoshenq_or_Shyshu_q_Responding_to_the_Critics_and_Assessing_the_Evidence_in_P._James_and_P._van_der_Veen_eds._Solomon_and_Shishak_BAR_International_Series_2732_Archaeopress_Oxford_2015. "

In that paper it states that kings [pl] of Egypt were often known by nicknames and there is no evidence to support that claim. And in which paleo-Hebrew, written when, do waw and qoph look alike? Not in any list I've ever seen of the paleo-Hebrew alphabet! Like this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet

Anyway, if the Hebrew Bible, Torah and Tanakh, passed down as written in the Babylonian square letters were based on annals scribed in paleo-Hebrew characters--where is another example where waw and qoph were confused? Not in the transcription of Egyptian names and toponyms. Egyptian "iwnw"[Heliopolis] was correctly given as "On" and "niwt" [meaning "the city" and another name for Thebes] was aptly transcribed as "No". It's special pleading, in the first place, that the Jews would have written the name of any king using a nickname in an official record as the "annals of the kings" would have to have been. But "Shishak" is highly appropriate for Sheshonq. But, if one expects the Jews to have transcribed that name perfectly, then the Hellenistic-era Egyptians should be held to even a higher standard--and look at what they did to some of the kingly names! In Dynasty 12, we find "Sesostris" written in Greek where "sn-wsrt" should be found. So an /n/ could disappear no matter who wrote a name.

  • Re: Rohl and the ExodusJaime O, Sat May 12 07:37
    Hello Marianne, Toby Thank you both for your comments. Marianne wrote: “This [Ramses = Sesi = Sysq] as a "cornerstone" for a theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither in the Hebrew or Egyptian... more
    • Re: Rohl and the ExodusAnonymous, Tue May 15 00:41
      //You’ll find many critics of Rohl and James who agree with you. I disagree with the proposal on grounds other than linguistic. Anyway, if you wish to read more on the matter to fully understand the... more
    • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 01:24
      Hello Jaime, Good discussion. You wrote: "Toby: I appreciate your comments on the Israel stele. However, it doesn’t answer my question to you: what could ‘laid in waste’, or ‘devastated’, mean in... more
      • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Mon May 21 14:19
        Hello Toby, Before anything else: forgive me for the delay aaaaaand… I messed up!! Rohl’s dates for Merneptah are a bit higher, about 875. See the Wikipedia article I sent Marianne. I was working on... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Peter James, Thu May 24 04:39
          Jaime, many thanks for distinguishing the work of myself and colleagues (Centuries of Darkness) from that of a.n.other. The latter's so-called "New Chronology" is utterly impossible: Egyptian NK... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 12:03
            Hello James thank you for the reply. It's always nice to read something from you, even though we stand on opposite sides of the chronological debate. On the city of Salem - yes, it does seem like it... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Herbert Storck, Fri May 25 07:19
            Good to see you still active. I have read a couple of your more recent peer-reviewed papers and have been impressed at how your ideas and research have matured over the years. I no longer believe... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Thu May 24 18:37
            "On the name Shishak, its possible relation to a shortened version of Ramesses (III and not II!!) and other matters discussed here recently, see the papers both pro and contra in the published... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:09
          Hello Jaime, You have no need to apologize for any delay. The collegiate has the busiest schedule in life. Thanks for the fine discussion. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 11:53
            Hi Toby At least we got to tackle some points. Maybe we will continue this discussion somewhere else, some other time. I can already tell the Israel stele and the Karnak relifs will intrigue you,... more
      • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Mon May 14 18:41
        "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the victories of... more
        • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:26
          Jon wrote: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
          • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:13
            Faulkner's dictionary is a good place to find where Egyptian words are attested. "fk" is given by Faulkner as "be empty" and the source he gives there is the Leiden Papyrus, "The Admonitions of a... more
            • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:40
              The Kamose text uses "fkw" in this context, which has been translated as "No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics". [bAkw stiw].
        • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 18:54
          Hello Jon, Me: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
          • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Sun May 20 20:07
            Toby, you wrote: "Ramesses, Merneptah's ancestor was likely the Pharoah that laid Israel waste. He has a relief on the Mortuary Temple at Karnak showing that. It has Egyptian and Israelie Chariots in ... more
            • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:06
              Hello Jon Smyth, Thanks for the tips on Yurco etc. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at the request of the list owner who would like this discussion relegated to the New... more
          • "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:40
            Toby wrote: "BTW, I KNOW that according to Conventional Egyptian Chronology, the chariot battle with ISrael couldn't have occured. The only way this relief makes sense is if Rameses lived 250 years... more
    • Re: Rohl and the Exodus — Marianne Luban, Sat May 12 11:00
    • shishaW becomes shishaQToby Anderson, Sat May 12 09:55
      Hello Jaime, Marianne, I made a short video showing how the 'W' in shishaw (Ramesses birth name) became a Q in ShishaQ. I think it shows it better than the pic in the wiki website you gave Jaime. The ... more
      • Paleo-HebrewMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 11:20
        Toby: "I made a short video showing how the 'W' in shishaw (Ramesses birth name) became a Q in ShishaQ. I think it shows it better than the pic in the wiki website you gave Jaime. The glyphs for the... more
        • Paleo-HebrewToby Anderson, Sat May 12 13:11
          Marianne, You: 'OMG--you obviously don't know anything about this.' and in the earlier posting: 'As long as there are people like you around, he'll keep writing them.' Since you are acting hostile, I ... more
          • re: Paleo-HebrewMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 14:16
            Toby: You: 'OMG--you obviously don't know anything about this.' and in the earlier posting: 'As long as there are people like you around, he'll keep writing them.' I meant people that, due to lack of ... more
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