Toby Anderson
"Israel is laid Waste"
Mon May 14, 2018 01:24
2600:8801:901:4610:4ac:c0dc:da0e:37c4

Hello Jaime,

Good discussion.

You wrote:
"Toby: I appreciate your comments on the Israel stele. However, it doesn’t answer my question to you: what could ‘laid in waste’, or ‘devastated’, mean in this new context? Rohl’s own chronology had Merneptah reigning about 865, which corresponds to Ahab and Jehoshaphat in his timeline. Also, you seem to be stuck on this point: “The relief shows that Israel had chariots. Chariots were first introduced to Israel by David and Solomon”. This might have rather been originally an upgrade on ancient Israelite warfare. I’m pretty sure chariots are already mentioned in the book of Judges."

"Israel is laid waste' refers to the Rehoboam's 5th year when Shishak(w) devasted Judah/Israel. (See verses below my signature). The chariots in Judges were not Israel's, but rather belonged to non-Israelie kings like Sisera. Rehoboam was Solomon's son.(1Ki 11:43). Both Solomon and David were the first Israelites to employ chariots...which were very likely still be around during Rehoboam's reign. In the egyptian relief on the temple mortuary relating to Ramsesses battle with Rehoboam is pictured both Egyptian and Israelie chariots.... You can see this relief at:
http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/08/13/The-Bible-According-to-Karnak.aspx

The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the victories of both Merneptahand his ancestors. The latter view is held by Rohl, and others. My earlier summary post gave the reasons for this view. This stele summarizes the reliefs on the Mortuary Karnak temple. These reliefs show the war victories of the ancestors of Merneptah. The Ramesses relief shows his victory over Israel. So it was Ramesses, Merneptah's ancester, which laid Israel waste. HEnce even if Merneptah synchronizes with Ahab and Jehoshophat, it is irrelevant to the phrase 'Israel is laid waste'. Why? because this was done, not during Merneptah's reign, but that of his ancestor, Ramesses. Merneptah reigned roughly 30 to 40 years after Ramesses.

A minor point, is that while I take your word about Rohl placing Menerptah at 865bc during the reigns of Ahab and Jehoshaphat, I would instead place them (Aham and Jehoshophat) between 930 and 907bc.

So, if Merneptah can be synchronized with Ahab/Jehoshophat, then the end of Ramesses long reign was, IMO, roughly 970bc. .....and sometime prior to that was when Ramesses (Shishaw(Q)) laid Israel to waste, it being in the 5th year of Rehoboam, Solomon's son.


Best,
Toby
[2Ch 12:2-4, 7-9 KJV] 2 And it came to pass, [that] in the fifth year of king Rehoboam Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, because they had transgressed against the LORD, 3 With twelve hundred chariots, and threescore thousand horsemen: and the people [were] without number that came with him out of Egypt; the Lubims, the Sukkiims, and the Ethiopians. 4 And he took the fenced cities which [pertained] to Judah, and came to Jerusalem. ... 7 And when the LORD saw that they humbled themselves, the word of the LORD came to Shemaiah, saying, They have humbled themselves; [therefore] I will not destroy them, but I will grant them some deliverance; and my wrath shall not be poured out upon Jerusalem by the hand of Shishak. 8 Nevertheless they shall be his servants; that they may know my service, and the service of the kingdoms of the countries. 9 So Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem, and took away the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house; he took all: he carried away also the shields of gold which Solomon had made.


  • Re: Rohl and the ExodusJaime O, Sat May 12 07:37
    Hello Marianne, Toby Thank you both for your comments. Marianne wrote: “This [Ramses = Sesi = Sysq] as a "cornerstone" for a theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither in the Hebrew or Egyptian... more
    • Re: Rohl and the ExodusAnonymous, Tue May 15 00:41
      //You’ll find many critics of Rohl and James who agree with you. I disagree with the proposal on grounds other than linguistic. Anyway, if you wish to read more on the matter to fully understand the... more
    • "Israel is laid Waste" — Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 01:24
      • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Mon May 21 14:19
        Hello Toby, Before anything else: forgive me for the delay aaaaaand… I messed up!! Rohl’s dates for Merneptah are a bit higher, about 875. See the Wikipedia article I sent Marianne. I was working on... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Peter James, Thu May 24 04:39
          Jaime, many thanks for distinguishing the work of myself and colleagues (Centuries of Darkness) from that of a.n.other. The latter's so-called "New Chronology" is utterly impossible: Egyptian NK... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 12:03
            Hello James thank you for the reply. It's always nice to read something from you, even though we stand on opposite sides of the chronological debate. On the city of Salem - yes, it does seem like it... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Herbert Storck, Fri May 25 07:19
            Good to see you still active. I have read a couple of your more recent peer-reviewed papers and have been impressed at how your ideas and research have matured over the years. I no longer believe... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Thu May 24 18:37
            "On the name Shishak, its possible relation to a shortened version of Ramesses (III and not II!!) and other matters discussed here recently, see the papers both pro and contra in the published... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:09
          Hello Jaime, You have no need to apologize for any delay. The collegiate has the busiest schedule in life. Thanks for the fine discussion. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at... more
          • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 11:53
            Hi Toby At least we got to tackle some points. Maybe we will continue this discussion somewhere else, some other time. I can already tell the Israel stele and the Karnak relifs will intrigue you,... more
      • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Mon May 14 18:41
        "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the victories of... more
        • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:26
          Jon wrote: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
          • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:13
            Faulkner's dictionary is a good place to find where Egyptian words are attested. "fk" is given by Faulkner as "be empty" and the source he gives there is the Leiden Papyrus, "The Admonitions of a... more
            • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:40
              The Kamose text uses "fkw" in this context, which has been translated as "No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics". [bAkw stiw].
        • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 18:54
          Hello Jon, Me: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
          • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Sun May 20 20:07
            Toby, you wrote: "Ramesses, Merneptah's ancestor was likely the Pharoah that laid Israel waste. He has a relief on the Mortuary Temple at Karnak showing that. It has Egyptian and Israelie Chariots in ... more
            • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:06
              Hello Jon Smyth, Thanks for the tips on Yurco etc. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at the request of the list owner who would like this discussion relegated to the New... more
          • "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:40
            Toby wrote: "BTW, I KNOW that according to Conventional Egyptian Chronology, the chariot battle with ISrael couldn't have occured. The only way this relief makes sense is if Rameses lived 250 years... more
    • Re: Rohl and the ExodusMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 11:00
      Jaime wrote: Marianne wrote: “This [Ramses = Sesi = Sysq] as a "cornerstone" for a theory makes no sense whatsoever. Neither in the Hebrew or Egyptian languages have I ever heard of a custom of... more
    • shishaW becomes shishaQToby Anderson, Sat May 12 09:55
      Hello Jaime, Marianne, I made a short video showing how the 'W' in shishaw (Ramesses birth name) became a Q in ShishaQ. I think it shows it better than the pic in the wiki website you gave Jaime. The ... more
      • Paleo-HebrewMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 11:20
        Toby: "I made a short video showing how the 'W' in shishaw (Ramesses birth name) became a Q in ShishaQ. I think it shows it better than the pic in the wiki website you gave Jaime. The glyphs for the... more
        • Paleo-HebrewToby Anderson, Sat May 12 13:11
          Marianne, You: 'OMG--you obviously don't know anything about this.' and in the earlier posting: 'As long as there are people like you around, he'll keep writing them.' Since you are acting hostile, I ... more
          • re: Paleo-HebrewMarianne Luban, Sat May 12 14:16
            Toby: You: 'OMG--you obviously don't know anything about this.' and in the earlier posting: 'As long as there are people like you around, he'll keep writing them.' I meant people that, due to lack of ... more
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