Jaime O
Re: "Israel is laid Waste"
Mon May 21, 2018 14:19
85.138.200.20

Hello Toby,

Before anything else: forgive me for the delay aaaaaand… I messed up!! Rohl’s dates for Merneptah are a bit higher, about 875. See the Wikipedia article I sent Marianne. I was working on the assumption that, would Ramses II be Shishak, his attack on Jerusalem had to fall some time before Year 8. My apologies.

You wrote: “"Israel is laid waste' refers to the Rehoboam's 5th year when Shishak(w) devasted Judah/Israel.”

See below.

You add: “The chariots in Judges were not Israel's, but rather belonged to non-Israelie kings like Sisera. Rehoboam was Solomon's son.(1Ki 11:43).Both Solomon and David were the first Israelites to employ chariots...which were very likely still be around during Rehoboam's reign. In the egyptian relief on the temple mortuary relating to Ramsesses battle with Rehoboam is pictured both Egyptian and Israelie chariots (…)”

Why do these chariots have to be Israelite and not non-Israelite?

You wrote: “The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the victories of both Merneptahand his ancestors. The latter view is held by Rohl, and others.”

I am not aware of any other Pharaoh claiming his predecessors’ victories as his own. We have examples of lists of conquests and campaigns that seemingly borrow elements and names from previous nearby lists (compare Taharqa to Seti I). However, if you read Merneptah’s stele, you will see how he actively claims to have conquered such and such place, such and such people. If this stele were to be an agglomeration of previous and current campaigns, we would expect it to say so.

That pharaohs tended to lie to glorify themselves. Deification of the living king in Ancient Egypt was a given fact. However, pharaohs are not necessarily coy towards their predecessors’ memory if it fits their own agenda. Thutmose III acknowledges Thutmose I’s campaign to Naharin in his Annals, for example. He carved for eternity how he erected a stele besides his grandfather’s at the east of river Euphrates.

With Merneptah stela out of the way, we are left with a mention of the city of Salem which was conquered by Ramses II between his Years 5 and 8. I suspect this city might be the pre-Davidic Jerusalem. Follow the link: http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/ramesisII_inscriptions.htm

You wrote: “A minor point, is that while I take your word about Rohl placing Menerptah at 865bc during the reigns of Ahab and Jehoshaphat, I would instead place them (Aham and Jehoshophat) between 930 and 907bc. “

Last time I checked yes, Rohl follows a Thiele-like timeline as many New Chronologists tend to do. You seem to aim at a much higher chronology. Personally I prefer a bit lower than yours and a bit higher than Thiele, but that’s a whole other discussion.

You add: “So, if Merneptah can be synchronized with Ahab/Jehoshophat, then the end of Ramesses long reign was, IMO, roughly 970bc. .....and sometime prior to that was when Ramesses (Shishaw(Q)) laid Israel to waste, it being in the 5th year of Rehoboam, Solomon's son.”

So, you are entertaining the notion of a 250-year revision. This is not Rohl’s territory, it is James et al. You might be interested in their work, given that the Centuries of Darkness chronology derives from a multi-disciplinary team, as oppose to a single Egyptologist who hasn’t been able to respond to criticism coming from other areas of study – such as Assyriology, etc.

James does not allow an overlap between Ramesside kings from the 20th Dynasty, contrary to Rohl. Thus, although both of them hold a similar date for Shoshenq I, they get different results for Ramses II. Either model requires a very short timeline to fit Shoshenq I and Shoshenq V.

Best wishes,
Jaime

  • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 01:24
    Hello Jaime, Good discussion. You wrote: "Toby: I appreciate your comments on the Israel stele. However, it doesn’t answer my question to you: what could ‘laid in waste’, or ‘devastated’, mean in... more
    • Re: "Israel is laid Waste" — Jaime O, Mon May 21 14:19
      • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Peter James, Thu May 24 04:39
        Jaime, many thanks for distinguishing the work of myself and colleagues (Centuries of Darkness) from that of a.n.other. The latter's so-called "New Chronology" is utterly impossible: Egyptian NK... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 12:03
          Hello James thank you for the reply. It's always nice to read something from you, even though we stand on opposite sides of the chronological debate. On the city of Salem - yes, it does seem like it... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Herbert Storck, Fri May 25 07:19
          Good to see you still active. I have read a couple of your more recent peer-reviewed papers and have been impressed at how your ideas and research have matured over the years. I no longer believe... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Thu May 24 18:37
          "On the name Shishak, its possible relation to a shortened version of Ramesses (III and not II!!) and other matters discussed here recently, see the papers both pro and contra in the published... more
      • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:09
        Hello Jaime, You have no need to apologize for any delay. The collegiate has the busiest schedule in life. Thanks for the fine discussion. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at... more
        • Re: "Israel is laid Waste"Jaime O, Sat May 26 11:53
          Hi Toby At least we got to tackle some points. Maybe we will continue this discussion somewhere else, some other time. I can already tell the Israel stele and the Karnak relifs will intrigue you,... more
    • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Mon May 14 18:41
      "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the victories of... more
      • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:26
        Jon wrote: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
        • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:13
          Faulkner's dictionary is a good place to find where Egyptian words are attested. "fk" is given by Faulkner as "be empty" and the source he gives there is the Leiden Papyrus, "The Admonitions of a... more
          • re: "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 11:40
            The Kamose text uses "fkw" in this context, which has been translated as "No man can settle down, when despoiled by the taxes of the Asiatics". [bAkw stiw].
      • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 14 18:54
        Hello Jon, Me: "The Merneptah stele, aka 'Israel' stele, written by Merneptah, claims Egypt laid Israel waste. But does Merneptahclaim that he did it? ....or does this stele recount instead, all the... more
        • "Israel is laid Waste"Jon Smyth, Sun May 20 20:07
          Toby, you wrote: "Ramesses, Merneptah's ancestor was likely the Pharoah that laid Israel waste. He has a relief on the Mortuary Temple at Karnak showing that. It has Egyptian and Israelie Chariots in ... more
          • "Israel is laid Waste"Toby Anderson, Mon May 21 23:06
            Hello Jon Smyth, Thanks for the tips on Yurco etc. I regret to say that I must bow out of this discussion at the request of the list owner who would like this discussion relegated to the New... more
        • "Israel is laid Waste"Marianne Luban, Tue May 15 10:40
          Toby wrote: "BTW, I KNOW that according to Conventional Egyptian Chronology, the chariot battle with ISrael couldn't have occured. The only way this relief makes sense is if Rameses lived 250 years... more
Click here to receive daily updates