Joe Baker
Re: Dynasty 15
Wed Aug 15, 2018 05:51
120.149.77.93

Hi All

Nothing new here about the length of the Hyksos dynasty. I raised this issue back in post 6205 on 17 May 2006 when I suggested the dynasty should have lasted at least 141+x years, see
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=177754;article=6205

To which Chris Bennett responded that Ryholt, at the 2005 SCIEM2000 workshop, said his study of the actual Turin King List papyrus suggested 140 years
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=177754;article=6206

At that time I was trying to create enough years to place Khyan before and/or at the time of the Thera eruption (as at Knossos his cartouche is on an alabaster lid found in an archaeological layer that is dated before the eruption). Back then I accepted that it erupted around 1605, but these days I place the eruption in 1627 - see my posts on the Venus tablet, for example
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=177754;article=12563

In that 6205 post I also suggested that Manetho’s 15th dynasty (as preserved more fully in Josephus and in the Book of Sothis) suffered the same transmission fate as the early rulers of the 18th dynasty. That is, at some stage in its transmission, a scribe inadvertently misunderstood the layout of a two by three table arrangement and made it into a list by reading firstly across row 1, then row 2 and then row 3, whereas as they should have firstly read down column 1 then down column 2. This correction results in Khyan being the second king of this dynasty (where I want him to be) and being succeeded by Iannas, which name is close to the Ynss who on in Avaris inscription calls himself the eldest son of Khyan. it also has Apophis being the second last ruler of the dynasty (he was contemporary with Seqenenre Tao and Kamose).

                ORIGINAL SOURCE LAYOUT
Salitis Beon
Apakhnas Apophis
Iannas Assis
⬋ ⬊
ORIGINAL COLUMN READING LATER ROW READING (as per Manetho)
Salitis Salitis
ḫyȝn = Apakhnas Beon
Ynss = Iannas Apakhnas
Beon Apophis
ỉpp = Apophis Iannas
ḫȝmwdy = Assis Assis

Now Rich - your Hyksos list from https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin_King_List is a right mess. The position of the 15th dynasty names are all restored (except Khamudi) by the writer of this Wikipedia page and it does not reflect the actual Turin King List which, except for the last line, does not preserve anything on this dynasty. Better to use the last link on that Wikipedia page, that is
https://web.archive.org/web/20060215025328/http://www.ancient-egypt.org/index.html
which, for column X.22-29, uses the preliminary work on the papyrus by Ryholt (who has not yet formally publish his findings).

By the way, I have not heard anything more (other than the original report) of additional fragments of the Turin King List papyrus being found in a basement wardrobe at the Turin Museum in 2009 after the British team of Richard Parkinson and Bridget Leach had arrived to assist in restoration work on the papyrus. They are said to have inspected the new fragments and arrangements were being made to take the papyrus to London for further study pending Italian government approval. Since then nothing. One (Italian) link to the story is at
http://www.anticoegitto.net/papiro_reale.asp

Regards Joe


  • Dynasty 15Marianne Luban, Sun Aug 12 09:36
    Schneider suggests that the duration of Dynasty 15 should be much more than 108 years.... more
    • Khyan and Sobekhotep IVMichael Liebig, Wed Aug 15 09:26
      Schneider suggests this, because of a allegedly synchronism between Khyan and Sobekhotep IV (Dyn. 13). But there are reasons to contradict this, see https://imjnet.academia.edu/DaphnaBenTor Regards... more
      • Khyan and Sobekhotep IVRobert Killian, Thu Aug 16 07:46
        Hi Michael, in particular and ALL Forum readers, in general. If the Celestial Event of Thera erupting in 2265AM, OR: 1628/1627BC, was in the 18th year of the Ammi-Saduqa Venus tablet,--- I have... more
        • re: Khyan and Sobekhotep IVMarianne Luban, Thu Aug 16 11:19
          Robert Killian wrote: "If the Celestial Event of Thera erupting in 2265AM, OR: 1628/1627BC, was in the 18th year of the Ammi-Saduqa Venus tablet,---" Why would you call the eruption of the volcano of ... more
          • re: Khyan and Sobekhotep IVRobert Killian, Mon Aug 20 01:52
            Marianne wrote: "Why would you call the eruption of thr volcano There a "celestial event" and wht could it possibly have to do with the Venus Tablet? These individual "postings" were collected over... more
          • 1627 - Thera Eruption and Venus TabletsJoe Baker, Sun Aug 19 08:27
            Hi All The eruption of Thera did not create a celestial event but it could have created an atmospheric event which would have affected the observational visibility of Venus before it went into and... more
            • re: 1627 - Thera Eruption and Venus TabletsRich McQuillen, Sun Aug 19 13:06
              Hi Joe, I read this article, and your links to previous articles. I compared to my notes and the new radiocarbon tests. ******* "the allowable solutions for the accession year of Ammi-ṣaduqa... more
            • re: Thera Eruption - New RadioCarbon TestsRich McQuillen, Sun Aug 19 12:34
              New tests released this week. Dating the ancient Minoan eruption of Thera using tree rings https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180815141326.htm "By using radiocarbon measurements from the... more
              • re: Thera Eruption - New RadioCarbon TestsMarianne Luban, Sun Aug 19 14:32
                Rich wrote: "Dating the ancient Minoan eruption of Thera using tree rings https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/08/180815141326.htm "By using radiocarbon measurements from the annual rings of... more
          • re: Khyan and Sābekhotep IVRobert Killian, Fri Aug 17 09:31
            Marianne, I have "posted"---a Celestial Event in 2265AM, 1628/1627BC. AND I have "posted"---The eruption of Thera, (Santorini), in the 18th year of the Ammi-Saduqa Venus Tablet,---! It may just be a... more
            • re: Khyan and Sābekhotep IVMarianne Luban, Fri Aug 17 10:41
              Robert Killian wrote: "I have "posted"---a Celestial Event in 2265AM, 1628/1627BC. AND I have "posted"---The eruption of Thera, (Santorini), in the 18th year of the Ammi-Saduqa Venus Tablet,---! It... more
              • re: Khyan and Sābekhotep IVRobert Killian, Fri Aug 17 11:33
                Marianne The "dates" are included in my original "post" You can read it. Robert Monaco
                • re: Khyan and Sābekhotep IVMarianne Luban, Fri Aug 17 12:08
                  Robert Killian: "The "dates" are included in my original "post" You can read it." Aren't you the kind of guy who shoots an arrow into a tree and then paints a bullseye around it? People have assigned ... more
                  • re: Khyan and Sābekhotep IVRobert Killian, Fri Aug 17 12:45
                    Marianne, I can accept that the "Celestial Event", which was experienced by many people of the Agean Sea and most of the island population as far as Egypt,---and,---the Venus Tablets did happen about ... more
                    • re: Khyan and Sābekhotep IVMarianne Luban, Fri Aug 17 14:24
                      Robert Killian: "I can accept that the "Celestial Event", which was experienced by many people of the Agean Sea and most of the island population as far as Egypt,---and,---the Venus Tablets did... more
      • Khyan and Sobekhotep IVWerner Nahm, Thu Aug 16 06:07
        Ben-Tor's papers have mixed merits. Early on, she showed that Khyan was early among the Hyksos. On the other hand, her refusal to accept clear 14C chronological evidence confuses the issues.... more
    • Re: Dynasty 15 — Joe Baker, Wed Aug 15 05:51
      • Re: Dynasty 15Marianne Luban, Wed Aug 15 15:23
        Joe wrote: "At that time I was trying to create enough years to place Khyan before and/or at the time of the Thera eruption (as at Knossos his cartouche is on an alabaster lid found in an... more
        • Re: Dynasty 15Marianne Luban, Fri Aug 17 09:46
          Another intriguing aspect of this is that the people of the Aegean, who were displaced by the eruption [or series of eruptions, whatever the case really was] must have had a presence in Egypt by the... more
          • re: Dynasty 15Jon Smyth, Sat Aug 18 08:44
            "In a text, the mother of Ahmose is called "the mistress of the islanders of the sea" even though she was a princess of Dynasty 17." The "islanders" in this context refer to the gezirah's in the... more
            • re: AahotepRich McQuillen, Sat Aug 18 10:44
              "In a text, the mother of Ahmose is called "the mistress of the islanders of the sea" even though she was a princess of Dynasty 17." -- I have a source for a similar statement for this from Bietak.... more
            • re: Dynasty 15Marianne Luban, Sat Aug 18 09:36
              Jon Smyth wrote: ""In a text, the mother of Ahmose is called "the mistress of the islanders of the sea" even though she was a princess of Dynasty 17." The "islanders" in this context refer to the... more
              • Wadj-wr (again)......was re: 15 Dynasty.Jon Smyth, Mon Aug 20 17:22
                Marianne Luban wrote: "We have been over this more than once and I am sure your take on this is not correct." Yes, I recall some years ago. At that time I believe I urged you to obtain a copy of... more
                • Wadj-wr for the last timeMarianne Luban, Tue Aug 21 10:06
                  Jon Wrote: Marianne Luban wrote: "We have been over this more than once and I am sure your take on this is not correct." "Yes, I recall some years ago. At that time I believe I urged you to obtain a... more
                  • re: wadj wrJon Smyth, Sun Sep 2 15:40
                    My apologies, I missed the last paragraph. Marianne Luban wrote: Another great philologist, Dr. Rainer Hannig, whose German language Egyptian dictionary is the one Egyptologists use [I have it right... more
                  • re: wadj wrRich McQuillen, Tue Aug 21 17:57
                    "as the Nile when it flows to the sea". Glyphs: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/w%EA%9C%A3%E1%B8%8F-wr I asked my linguist friend if he had an opinion on it. He said the "wadj" is instead "Wetsi", or... more
                    • re: wadj wrMarianne Luban, Wed Aug 22 09:54
                      Rich wrote: "as the Nile when it flows to the sea". Glyphs: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/w%EA%9C%A3%E1%B8%8F-wr I asked my linguist friend if he had an opinion on it. He said the "wadj" is instead... more
              • re: Dynasty 15Marianne Luban, Sat Aug 18 09:55
                Here are some images of Minoans in Egypt. I do not, however, agree with the dates of James Thomas. https://medium.com/the-bronze-age/the-wandering-tribes-of-the-aegean-96ff9703ce3c
          • Re: Dynasty 15Robert Killian, Sat Aug 18 03:46
            Marianne, In my 'Chronicle': Ac. Shamshi-Adad 2078AM, + 33 =2111AM, OR 1792BC, 1781BC. Ac.Hammurabi 2100AM, + 42 = 2142AM, OR 1792BC, 2142AM, 1750BC. Ac. Tao II 2334AM, + 4 = 2342AM, OR 1558BC,... more
    • re: hyksos orderRich McQuillen, Tue Aug 14 00:12
      "All names of this sequence (1. Salitis, 2. Bnon, 3. Apachnan, 4. Iannas, 5. Archles/Assis, 6. Apophis) but one can be equated with names attested epigraphically." -- This is not clear to me at all.... more
      • re: hyksos orderRobert Killian, Wed Aug 15 11:09
        Hi Rich, Perhaps my "posting" of what is known of the 15th Dynasty of Egypt at: http://www.crystalinks.com/dynasty 15.html may be of some help: 1 Aperanat---2212AM +30 = 2242AM. & 1680BC -30 =... more
      • re: hyksos - Turin CannonRich McQuillen, Tue Aug 14 00:28
        https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin_King_List "Lost — Lost — Nib.. Nib.. Mer..en.. Mer..en.. Penensetensepet Penensetensepet Kherethebshepesu Kherethebshepesu Khut..hemet Khut..hemet Lost —... more
    • re: Khyan timeframeRich McQuillen, Mon Aug 13 01:52
      "A cumulative reign length of 160–169 or 180–189 years, respectively, for just six king" ... "This translates into generation lengths of between 14.375 and 19.75 years for a total of 160–169 years"... more
      • re: Khyan timeframeMarianne Luban, Mon Aug 13 11:23
        I haven't had time to analyze Schneider's paper, but I don't think one can figure the reigns of kings according to generational lengths because some rulers last a long time and others are gone within ... more
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