Anonymous
Re: New Moon in 23 Thutmose III at Megiddo
Sun Dec 16, 2018 21:43
2600:8801:900:3b40:21b7:d7e9:7cec:f197

Hello,

I've had a chance to develop my original and preliminary posting.

Gerard Gertoux (starting on pg 4, Gerard Gertoux "THE AKHENATEN'S REIGN: AN EGYPTOLOGICAL DELIRIUM") dates Thumose III using
#1. Roughly by Radio Carbon 14 dating -1486-1434 +/-15 years
#2. Armant Stela - which documents the start of his reign independent of Hatshepsut, approx. in Thutmose' year 22.
#3. Astronomical inscription on the ceiling of Senemut's tomb who served under both Hatshepsut and Thutmose III - probably around the 5th or the 7th year of Tuthmose III. This he dates to July 16, 1464 BCE.
#4. Two lunar days, which he obtains from the article "K. SETHE Urkunden der 18. Dynastie"
(1) (psdntyw) respectively dated I Shemu 21 of year 23 (Urk.IV 657.2) = April 21, 1450 BCE
(2) II Peret 30 of year 24 (Urk.IV 836.1-3), confirm the dating of Thutmose III's reign = May 8, 1450 BCE

Based on this, Gertoux dates Thutmose III year 1 to 1472bce, year 23 to 1450bce, and year 24 to 1448bce.

I disagree with Gertoux regarding his assigned Egyptian dates for the two lunar days (full moons). The Egyptian Calendar I 'created' differs from Richard Parkers in that based on an inscription, I believe the Egyptians would very occassionally (400 to 600 or so years) have leap years in which the last day of their year is skipped, that year, then, having only 364 days instead of 365 days.

I looked at all the 'full moons' (using the Skyviewcafe online planetarium) which occured on I Shemu 21 and II Peret 30, from -1507 to -1440 (Julian time), and there were 5 sets of years as candidates for I Shemu 21 followed by II Peret 30 (less than 2 years separated).
1. -1494/-1492
2. -1483/-1481
3. -1469/-1467
4. -1455/-1453
5. -1444/-1442

But since the ceiling of Senemut's tomb is dated to 1464bce AND to sometime around Thutmoses 5th to 7th year, this leaves the only 2 possible choices for Thutmose III's 23rd and 24th years:
A. -1455/-1453
B. -1444/-1442

---------------------------

A. -1455/-1453

I Shemu 21 = May 16, -1455 = 23 Thutmose III - full moon appeared 2 days earlier
II Peret 30 = Feb 22, -1453 = 24 Thutmose III - full moon appeared on this same day

Where Thutmose year 23 spanned -1455 & -1454; and his year 24 spanned -1454 & -1453
Thutmose Year 1 then started -1477 = 1478bce
The ceiling of Senemut's tomb, dated July 16, 1464bc, would have equated to Thutmose III year12 which is 5 years after Gertoux's estimate of somewhere around year 5 to 7.

-------------------------

B. -1444/-1442

I Shemu 21 = May 13, -1444 = 23 Thutmose III - full moon appeared 1 day after
II Peret 30 = Feb 19, -1442 = 24 Thutmose III - full moon appeared 1 day after

Where Thutmose year 23 spanned -1444 & -1443; and his year 24 spanned -1443 & -1442
Thutmose Year 1 then started -1466 = 1467bce

The ceiling of Senemut's tomb, dated Jule 16, 1464bc, would have equated to Thutmose III year3 which is 2 years before Gertoux's estimate of somewhere around year 5 to 7. This seems to be a closer fit than the -1455/-1453 case above.

---------------------

Below my signature, is a summary, in Gertoux's own words

Best,
Toby

pg 4, Gerard Gertoux "THE AKHENATEN'S REIGN: AN EGYPTOLOGICAL DELIRIUM"

"The reign of Thutmose III is based on the following chronological data:
#1. It is dated 1486-1434 by 14C to +/- 15 years.
#2. The date of accession is: year 1, I Shemu 4, and date of death is: year 54, III Peret 30 (length of his reign: 53 years 11 months)11. Years of reign are counted from the date of accession (I Shemu 4) and not from 1st Thoth (I Akhet 1). Moreover, Thutmose III began to reign independently, without Hatshepsut, presumably from year 22, II Peret 10, according to Armant Stela.
#3. The astronomical ceiling of Senenmut's tomb gives the position of several constellations and planets, known at this time. Some of them are easy to identify as the Big Dipper, Orion, Venus, Mars, Mercury, Saturn and Jupiter. This ceiling describes a right ascension of Jupiter between 73 and 95 where Mars is not visible, which could occur
in the period from 1455 to 1505, only during the night on November 14, 1463 BCE (the III Akhet 23) according to astronomy12. Senenmut was a very important person under Hatshepsut, thus it is possible to find the year of the reign when the ceiling of his grave was designed. Senenmut received the prestigious title of "Grand Steward of Amun"
probably around the 5th or the 7th year of Tuthmose III and also had the rare privilege for an individual to develop a royal tomb and to append his own grave. Ostraca of this tomb13 can set the year in which the ceiling was realized, because masonry and stone cutting started on IV Peret 2, year 7 of Thutmose III and spread out through year 9. As
ostracon No. 80 states that the door of the chapel was opened on III Akhet 27, year 11, we can assume that the development work and decoration, such as the astronomical ceiling design (from the observation) were performed at the end of development work in year 9 or 10. According to Dorman14, Senenmut monuments and those of the vast complex of Deir el-Bahari were probably built in parallel. The posthumous disgraces of Senenmut and Queen Hatshepsut led to an hammering and a rewriting of their cartouches, which creates conflicting dates15. These two disgraces are unexplained since the mummy of Thutmose I was placed (in year 16) in the sarcophagus of Hatshepsut beside another which was built after his death16 (in year 22). However, the start date of the tomb is Year 7. As Senenmut's tomb is only a small part of the vast complex, 2 years of construction seem to be sufficient to complete the ceiling. The famous expedition to Punt, for example, which is represented on a retaining wall of the temple17, is dated year 9. Astronomical observation represented on the ceiling must therefore date this year 9 of Tuthmose III, which sets the accession of the pharaoh in 1472 (= 1463 + 9) BCE and his reign from 08/1472 to 03/1418, according to the accession date"
#4. Two lunar days 1 (psdntyw)fn18 respectively dated I Shemu 21 of year 23 (Urk.IV 657.2) and II Peret 30 of year 24 (Urk.IV 836.1-3), confirm the dating of Thutmose III's reign."

fn18 K. SETHE Urkunden der 18. Dynastie



  • New Moon in 23 Thutmose III at MegiddoToby Charles Anderson, Fri Dec 14 17:27
    Hello Joe, I am just now replying to your New Moon, Thutmose III, year 23, battle at Megiddo postings as I have just finished expanding my Excel Egyptian daily calendar back to around 2200bc. You:... more
    • Re: New Moon in 23 Thutmose III at Megiddo — Anonymous, Sun Dec 16 21:43
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