Marianne Luban
Re: Wine Jar Labels
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:08
75.169.141.74

Joe Baker wrote:

I wrote:

"There is one from Year 1 that reads "from the estate or house [pr] of Ankhkheperure". But another from "Year 1, month 1" [I Akhet when the vintage became ripe] says "from the estate or house of Smenkhkare, justified"--meaning this person was deceased.
"

Joe:
"The first wine label you refer to is Am 139 which reads
“Regnal year 1, 1st month, Wine of the estate of the One who Pacifies Aton. Western river. through Paḥw”.
There are 7 wine labels coming from this estate named after Akhenaten."


No, I made no reference to that. It's not the same one. There are several from Year 1 that say the same thing "Estate of the One Who Pacifies the Aten".

Joe:
"The second wine label you refer to is actually two different wine jar labels, Am 63 and Am 64. Am 63 reads
“Regnal year 1. Wine of the estate of Smenkh⸢ka⸣re. ⸢Djeserkheperu⸣, The western river, Vintager supervisor Sakaia”."


That's right. One says "deceased" [although you say you have evidence to the contrary] and the other doesn't.


Am 64 reads
"“Regnal year 1. Wine of the estate of Ankhkheperure ...”.
Also the erased honey jar label you refer to originally mentioned “Regnal year 17. Honey ...” then beneath the erasure was written “Regnal [year] 1. W[ine ...]”
I remember the debates on the old erased Amarna@egroups.com when Marc Gabolde first showed up with his Amarna theory. I kept and print out many of them. One of your posts (as UrHekau) made mention of this as “Year 1, wine of the estate of Smenkhare, deceased.”. You also suggested that the use of only the nomen Smenkhare was because he was considered a usurper. Gabolde replied on 23 Oct 2000 by stating the reading “mAa-xrw”, “true voice” = deceased after the name of Semenekhkare on this docket is a misreading of the hieratic signs and R. Krauss has corrected as “Djeser-kheperu” and I agree with him (but I also believe that it is a posthumous mention of Semenekhkare). The fact that it is the nomen and not the praenomen which is used is not an exception. There is a good proportion of dockets mentionning an estate of Akhenaten (and not Neferkheperure) ... So there is no reason to suppose that Smenekhkare was considered as an usurper through this document."


I suspect the discussion you refer to long predated Wahlberg's 2012 MA thesis "The Wine Jars Speak", In it she still gives the jar label with the mention of Smenkhkare as "mAa xrw" [deceased] so I had to go by that. However, I certainly don't consider Smenkhkare an usurper now due to my own research, which I put into the paper "Bringing Smenkhkare Into Focus".


https://www.academia.edu/37004840/Bringing_Smenkhkare_Into_Focus

I believe I have found an image of Smenkhkare as a child and possibly another head of him as a king. I lean most toward Smenkhkare being a son of Akhenaten now, one by a wife other than Nefertiti. We have no real idea how many wives this pharaoh actually had but, obviously, the two most important ones were Nefertiti and Kiya. If Kiya is the same woman as the daughter of the king of Mitanni, she was with Akhenaten from the beginning of his reign--but of course her children would not be seen in the official scenes with Akhenaten and his chief queen, Nefertiti. This same king of Mitanni sent a letter wishing health to the sons of Akhenaten, among others--and one would think he would know if the Egyptian pharaoh had sons or not. This would have been earlier in the reign than the birth of Tutankhamun, whom I believe to have been a son of Nefertiti,
Yes, I have certainly re-adjusted my thinking on Smenkhkare.

  • Re: Wine Jar LabelsJoe Baker, Sun Dec 16 19:06
    Hi Marianne There is one from Year 1 that reads "from the estate or house [pr] of Ankhkheperure". But another from "Year 1, month 1" [I Akhet when the vintage became ripe] says "from the estate or... more
    • Re: Wine Jar Labels — Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 17 11:08
      • Re: Wine Jar LabelsRich McQuillen, Sat Jan 5 20:02
        "I lean most toward Smenkhkare being a son of Akhenaten now, one by a wife other than Nefertiti." -- I read the paper, Bringing Smenkhkare into focus. These articles are pure gold. So we know that... more
        • Re: Wine Jar LabelsMarianne Luban, Sun Jan 6 12:31
          Rich McQuillen wrote: I wrote: "I lean most toward Smenkhkare being a son of Akhenaten now, one by a wife other than Nefertiti." Rich: "-- I read the paper, Bringing Smenkhkare into focus. These... more
          • Re: Wine Jar LabelsMarianne Luban, Wed Jan 23 18:58
            Because we know what month of the year the vintage ripened during this period [I Axt, the first month of the Egyptian calendar, mentioned on a label from Amarna with "Year 1"] at least we can know... more
            • Re: Wine Jar LabelsMarianne Luban, Wed Jan 23 19:06
              Got cut off by the Internet. So, as I was saying, Akhenaten was still living then in his final year, which was 17, as there are several wine jar labels marked "Year 17". The same can be said for... more
        • re: AnkhkheperureRich McQuillen, Sat Jan 5 20:46
          In the hypothetical scenario described earlier, let's make "Ankhkheperure" a new person of royal blood. How about a prince and younger brother of AM3. In this scenario, Smenkh is neither the son of... more
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