Toby Charles Anderson
Sabaka - when the chronology doesn't work, just change his n
Tue Aug 13, 2019 14:03
104.231.68.141

Sabaka - when the chronology doesn't work, just change his name!
Greetings,

When you read this post, you'll understand the title of this posting.

In the Appendix below, I quote from:
A. Joe Baker
B. Jaap Titalar
C. Dan'el Kahn
D. Ibrahim Aly (referred by Jean-Frederic Brunet)

In summary, these 4 gentlemen refer to 3 dati reqarding Shabaka respectively from
(1) a stela found in the Serapeum tombs
(2) Herodotus - Histories Book 2, paragraphs 137 to 140
(3) Manetho - fragments 64 or so (I'll have to look them up).

(1) Regards the stela, Aly claims it's possible that Mariette meant 'Shabataka' instead of 'Shabaka'. However, Brunet refutes this as follows: "...but it seems hard to accept, as Mariette was fully aware of the difference between the two Kussite Kings 'cartouches'"

(2) Regards Herodotus, Baker, Titalar, and Kahn (and likely others) all claim that Sabacon refers to an amalgamation of all the kings of Kush who exercised some sort of authority over all of Egypt for a period approiximating 50 years. Kahn, despite his initial support of this amalgamation, sets out to prove the opposite, and instead concludes that "...the Ethiopian king Sabacon and ...the Egyptian King Anysis ...these paragraphs (Herodotus, Book 2, para. 137-140) can reflect ... only Piankhy ...and Tefnakht". The point here, irregardless of whether Kahn's reflections are true, is that Kahn, despite his claims for an amalgamated Sabacon, rather, argues for an unamalgamated Sabacon for Herodotus' para. 137 to 140. The only other para. containing 'Sabacon' is 152, to wit: "This was the second time that Psammetichus had been driven into banishment. On a former occasion he had fled from Sabacos the Ethiopian, who had put his father Necos to death...".
Some background is needed here. The Kushites(Ethiopians) controlled Egypt for a period of about 50 years starting during the reign of Pianky(Piye) and ending near the end of Taharqa's reign in 664bc. According to Wikipedia, Essarhaddon captured Memphis from Taharqa in 771bc. Hence, in 669bc, Egypt was under Assyrian control, and some Egyptian rulers including Necho I joined with Taharqa's army, and rebelled against the Assyrians. When Ashurbanipal came, they all fled including, presumably Psammetichus; however, Ashurbanipal captured Necho, but later pardoned him and reinstated him (Necho). In 664bc, Taharqa's successor, Tantamani killed Necho, and Psammetichus fled again. So, here we have 2 times which Psammetichus fled. It is possible there was a third time. But to which 'fledding' does Herodotus refer when he says '..the second occasion .... former occasion he fled from Sabacos the Ethiopian'. Herodotus' previouis paragraph 151 states that Psametichus was fleeing, not from an Ethiopian, nor an Assyrian, but rather from 11 kings of Egypt with whom he previously had been co-reigning with. In para. 148 to 150, Herodotus, on a tangent from our discussion, describes a huge Labyrinth above Lake Moeris, which these 12 kings made. Now, to the point, in para. 147: "When the Egyptians regained their liberty after the reign of the priest of Vulcan (Ptah), unable to continue any while without a king, they divided Egypt into twelve districts, and set twelve kings over them. These twelve kings, united together by intermarriages, ruled Egypt in peace....". Hence, the reign of these 12 kings started when (1) the reign of the priest of vulcan ended and (2) the Egyptians regained their liberty. Who is this 'priest of vulcan(Ptah)? Well, Pianky died in 714bc (conventional dating, though some [Gertoux, Ian Onvlee, and myself) place it 10 to 15 years earlier), and 104 years later, in 610bc, Psammetichus died. Pianky could not have been this priest. And, it is sometime after the reign of this priest of Ptah, that Psametichus fled from the 11 kings. We can identify this 'priest of Ptah' in the paragraphs prior to para. 147, namely para. 142 '...from their first king to the last mentioned monarch, the priest of Vulcan (Ptah)....' and prior to para. 141, 'The next king, I was told, was a priest of Vulcan(Ptah), called Sethos. This monarch despised and neglected the warrior class of the Egyptians ..... Afterwards, therefore, when Sanacherib, king of the Arabians and Assyrians, marched his vast army into Egypt, the warriors one and all refused to come to his aid.'. This high priest of Ptah could only be Taharqa who was called Sethos. The reason for this 'name' is a long explanation, but in short, F.L.Griffith (see: 'The Sethon of Herodotus' in 'Stories of the high priests of Memphis') gives 2 other examples in which Herodotus confuses the appellative title with a person's name. He also gives the etymology of the Egytian word for 'high priest', and explains why/how it likely rendered as 'Sethon' by Herodotus.(for more details, see: http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=177754;article=18415). This jives with Josephus who also identifies Sethon as Taharqa.

(3) Regards Manetho, Baker (Appendix A) and Titalar (Appendix B) claim a 'T' must surely be missing. Their statements can not stand on their own. Rather, they are offered as possible solutions to chronological problems including, but not limited to, the reign order of Shabataka and Shabaka. If one prefers Shabataka then Shabaka, then 'Sabacon' is missing a 'T'. OTOH, if one prefers Shabaka then Shabataka, then 'Sabacon' is not missing a 'T'. But if we consider the fact both Manetho and Herodotus, use the same name, SABACON; then the chance of both of them dropping a 'T', statistically, is rather small.

Regarding Manetho's 'Sabacon', Joe Baker states: 'One of the names of these kings has lost it's -ta-.' Jaap Titalar echos this: 'One of these should have a T in their name, but that has been dropped out.'. Baker says: "But the Greek name Sebekhos is an equally good rendition of Sabaka.". I disagree. Baker is referring to the 2nd name Manetho refers to:

1. Sabacôn, who, taking Bochchôris captive, burned him alive, and reigned for 8 years.
2. Sebichôs, his son, for 14 years.

Notice the ch in Sebichos vs the 'c' in Sabacon.

I suggest that this 'ch' grapheme (how it's written) equates to the 'tch' phoneme (how it sounds) and refers to the 19th of 44 english phonemes (https://www.dyslexia-reading-well.com/44-phonemes-in-english.html). This 19th phonemes has these 5 graphemes: ch, tch, tu, ti, te

In other words the 'ch' is not written as it sounds (tch). ... and this is especially true in regards to this phoneme in Greek, to wit:

"One of the most important things to heed in English language spelling is that the language combines several other languages especially Latin and ----Greek----.

This leaves the language so rich in vocabulary but also comes with disturbing variations in spellings as well. Many ----sounds are not written as they sound---- and at the same time a single sound can be spelled with different letters or group of letters.

In this context sound /ch/ can be written with letters /ch/ or /tch/."

Is it possible that the name Sabataka might 'sound' like:
Sa-ba-TK-a ie. Sa-ba-tch-a ie. Sa-ba-ch-a ?

It's very possible, for consider that the occupants for the 68th (Kurru 15) and 69th (Kurru 18) tombs are respectively identified respectively with inscriptions for:
SAHAKO (3) - younger brother of Pi'ANKHY
SHEBITKU (4)- son of Pi'ANKHY
note: the '3' and '4' refer to the reign order.

(Dows Dunham and M.F. Laming Macadam "NAMES AND RELATIONSHIPS OF THE ROYAL FAMILY OF NAPATA" in Jounal of Egyptian Archaeology (JEA) Vol. 35, pg 139-149
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.533336/page/n189)

NOTE the TK in shebiTKu.
It is NOT shebiTaKu

Is it can easily be seen to be similar to: shebiTCHu The 'TCH is the grapheme (written version) of the CH phonome (sounds like) and thus in turn is rendered the shebiCHu and becomes in the Greek: Sebichôs

==============================
Appendix -
==============================

A. "Manetho (and Diodoros) tells us that Sabakos killed Bokhkhoris. So it is assumed that Sabakos = Sabaka. But the Greek name Sebekhos is an equally good rendition of Sabaka. One of the names of these kings has lost it's -ta-.
... But in Herodotos (and Diodoros) the deeds of Sabakos are an amalgamation of all the Kusite rulers of Lower Egypt."
From: "Joe Baker"
To:
Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: EEF Re: coregencies (Sabataka & Sabaka)
http://www.egyptologyforum.org/bbs/Sabataka&Sabaka.txt

B. "...Manetho is reported to have said by later writers that a certain "Sabacôn" did this (kill Bakenranef), and he was followed by a "Sebichôs".
BOTH Sabacôn and Sebichôs derive from an Egyptian (Kushite) name Sha-Ba-Ka.
Yet we know that one of these was Sha-Ba-Ta-Ka and the other Sha-Ba-Ka. One of these should have a T in their name, but that has been dropped out.
But which is which? We can't tell from Manetho's names!"
Jaap Titulaer
Re: The Šašanq 5, Bakenrenef and Šabaka Apis bulls
Tue Aug 6, 2019 10:53
http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=177754;article=18405

C. "5. Since the Sabacos of Herodotus embodies all the Kushite kings who ruled Egypt, it is difficult to identify the specific Kushite king who invaded Egypt in Herodotus' story. The identification of Sabacos with Shabaka poses some historical problems (fn20)
fn20: Lloyd, Herodotus, pg 91-93"
pg. 52, Dan'el Kahn "Piankhy's Conquest of Egypt in Greek Sources: Herodotus II 137-140 revisited"

D. "Discussing these matters, Ibrahim Aly suggested two possibilities (fn61). Mariette may have misread the name on the stela; perhaps it really meant Shabatka. This would explain the name written elsewhere in the room but it seems hard to accept, as Mariette was fully aware of the difference between the two Kussite Kings 'cartouches (fn62)."
Jean-Frederic Brunet "The XXIInd and XXVth Dynasties Apis Burial Conundrum.
Journal of the Ancient Chronology Forum (JACF),
http://www.newchronology.org/cgi-bin/somsid.cgi?session=1564176951&page=html/volumes/index
JACF, VOLUME 10, 2005
http://www.newchronology.org/tfiles/3C3CSESSIONID3E3E/10a026.pdf
pg 28,29

Best,
Toby

  • Taharqa, age 20, co-reign with ShabatakaToby Charles Anderson, Mon Aug 5 23:35
    Taharqa, age 20, co-reign with Shabataka Greetings, Taharqa’s reign is reckoned from 690bc, none-the-less, there is evidence that he co-reigned with his brother Shabataka much earlier than this. A... more
    • Sabaka - when the chronology doesn't work, just change his n — Toby Charles Anderson, Tue Aug 13 14:03
      • Shabaka & ShabatakaJaap Titulaer, Thu Aug 15 11:24
        Hi Toby, First, my name is Titulaer, not Titalar ;) Second, the reconstruction of D25, including the order of the reinging kings is based on primary data, not any late secondary or tertiary sources... more
        • Shabaka & ShabatakaToby Charles Anderson, Thu Aug 15 17:54
          Hello Jaap, Sorry about misspelling your name. And thanks for the link to Shebitku. It has many things to ponder. FWIW, I did, in fact, read wikipedia on shabaka.... more
          • Shabaka & ShabatakaJaap Titulaer, Fri Aug 16 06:11
            Hi Toby, I'm on holiday, so I'm without access to my computer or even a proper keyboard... Working from memory here. The Shabataka issue was discussed a lot two decades ago (at ANE, later a.o. here), ... more
            • Primary Tang-i-var Shabaka & ShabatakaToby Charles Anderson, Sat Aug 17 15:43
              Hello Jaap, You wrote: "Assuming that Shabataka was second his reign would need to be stretched to 16 years, from 706 to 690, with at least 13 years of those without any attestation!" I will keep... more
            • Shabaka & ShabatakaJaap Titulaer, Fri Aug 16 06:44
              Hi Toby, I've found your #viii, but that is a secondary or even tertiary text. Discussed here... more
              • Shabaka & ShabatakaJaap Titulaer, Fri Aug 16 07:02
                Hi Toby, An extra comment on CtYBR2885, it is a demotic text and is read as given 203 years. AFAIK demotic 3 looks a lot like 7 in demotic. Hence the correct meaning may be 207 years. I have Tefnakht ... more
                • 203 years of CtYBR2885 from Bakenrenef to PsammetichusToby Charles Anderson, Sat Aug 17 14:09
                  Hi Jaap, There were several discussions on this list regarding the 203 years of CtYBR2885 from Bakenrenef to Psammetichus. The specific one I was referring to was from Ian Onvlee, which I give below... more
    • Taharqa, age 20, co-reign with ShabatakaToby Charles Anderson, Fri Aug 9 11:46
      Greetings, One argument supporting the Shebitku-Shabaka succession order regards an inscription on a statue labelled 'CG 42204'. The statue is of Haremakhet 'the High Priest of Amun' who calls... more
      • Taharqa, age 20, co-reign with ShabatakaJaap Titulaer, Fri Aug 9 18:17
        Hi Toby, >> What does Herodotus mean by this? >> Were there 2 invasions? >> or Was there 1 invasion? Two. Herodotus mixes it all up. He calls all Kushite kings Sabacon and had him reign for 50... more
        • Herodotus' Sabacon and SethonToby Charles Anderson, Sat Aug 10 10:58
          Hello Jaap, Me thinks Herodotus is not so mixed up as you espouse. I'll address your 2 main arguments that Herodotus is mixed up, to wit: 1. YOUR CLAIM HERODOTUS' GENERIC USE OF SABACON 2. THE... more
          • Herodotus aJaap Titulaer, Sat Aug 10 12:25
            Hi Toby, Yes Khan came to essentially the same conclusion. (This was before the reversal of the order of Shabaka & Shabataka.)... more
            • re: herodotusToby Charles Anderson, Mon Aug 12 12:46
              Hi Jaap, Thanks for the lead to Khan regarding Sabacon standing for all Kushite kings. IMHO, I reject this, 1. firstly as there seems to be too much correlation between the names of Shabako/Shabaqo... more
        • Taharqa, age 20, co-reign with ShabatakaJaap Titulaer, Fri Aug 9 18:21
          >> Shabaka is certainly also the son-in-law of Taharqa Ahum, Shabaka was brother-in-law of Taharqa, not son-in-law. Harran Tablets Vs. 70-71 [Onasch, Die Assyrischen Eroberungen Ägyptens, I, 108.]:... more
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