Fred
Re: TIP and Kushites
Thu Jun 26, 2003 11:37
81.48.89.238 (XFF: 202.148.94.2)

Dear Ian,

- On Takelot III 's problem, I work for an article to be publish in the GM. Apart of the Berlin papyrus I though to be of year 14 of this king for several reasons you will see, I also prepare the publication of the coffins of one of Takelot III's daughter, that displays some kushite forms and that is very similar to coffins of cousins and uncle of Montuemhat, also with another of teh generation pre-montuemhat. All that led me to suppose that Takelot III live longer that previsously said and died only c. 740-730.
- With 14 years of reign, T III would be the most plausible candidate for the year 19 of Wadi gasus. Now, I suppose that Nimlot is always a good candidate, but lesser that T III.
- On Shabaka-Shabataka, I'm open because of the possibility that Shabaka would be an usurper, this would explain his elimination of the Kawa'stela story, and is supported by a glose of Eusebius from an earlier history of Egypt by Erathostenes (?) that says that Tarcos killed his predecessor. With the absence of monuments for a 17 years reign of Shabataqa, the fact that he was the first king of Egypt to send mail to Assyria, whereas we have a seal of Shabaka...All that led me to be more open, even if I'm not convinced.
A (completely) provisionnal chronology would be :


780-752 Osorkon III (being king only in year 6 of Sheshonq IV not just after year 39 of Sheshonq III)
757-738 Takelot III
738-735 Roudamon
735-730 Djehoutyemhat
750-737 Kashta
737-712 Piankhy (Highest year 24, not 30)Campaign 718
712-705 Shabatka (8 years of Manetho)
704-690 Shabaka (14 years of Manetho+ Statue BM)
690-664 Taharqa

All that is in work, not all will be kept...
Best,

Fred


  • TIP and KushitesIan, Wed Jun 25 14:39
    Dear Fred, I would like to obtain a clearer understanding of your current position on the transition between the line of Osorkon 'III' and the Kushite kings. Some time ago, while already favoring a... more
    • Re: TIP and Kushites — Fred, Thu Jun 26 11:37
      • Re: TIP and KushitesIan, Thu Jun 26 12:38
        Dear Fred, 1. Line of Osorkon 'III'. Do you now propose to make HPA Osorkon a different person from King Osorkon 'III'? If you still think they are the same, he would be about 95 years old when he... more
        • Re: TIP and KushitesFred, Thu Jun 26 14:58
          Dear Ian, Some comments : Ian : 1. Line of Osorkon 'III'. Do you now propose to make HPA Osorkon a different person from King Osorkon 'III'? If you still think they are the same, he would be about 95 ... more
          • Re: TIP and KushitesIan, Thu Jun 26 21:49
            Dear Fred, well, let's see... I suppose that I really have to see the bloody new edition of JEA which appears to contain another important article by Broekman. Is it available for sale in France?... more
            • Papyrus Berlin 3048Leo, Thu Jun 26 23:51
              Dear Fred, Personally, I do second Kitchen's reading of the Year 30 bandage but acknowledge that its poor state of preservation does not help us much. I don't see any strong reason why Piye could not ... more
              • A ClarificationLeo, Fri Jun 27 03:52
                As an aside after thinking things through, I still do hope that you FREDERIC or one of his fellow professional classmates will publish "THE CASE" for dating the Berlin Papyrus in the future in GM or... more
                • Re: A ClarificationFred, Fri Jun 27 08:56
                  Dear leo, Some comments : - the article on Takelto III is not a hope, it is reality, I will send it the next months probably. I thought I had spoken of it earlier... - the n 3 can not be Rudamon,... more
                  • Re: A ClarificationIan, Fri Jun 27 09:37
                    Dear Fred, Can you please tell me where in Paris one could obtain the new volume of JEA? I have people hunting for it. Although your response to Leo contains some of the answers, I would appreciate... more
                    • JEA 88Jean-Fred, Fri Jun 27 12:04
                      Dear Ian Just a very quick note! JEA 88 has reached Montreal earlier this week and I'm going to my friend's house tonight in order to have a look at it (my friend is member of the EES who publishes... more
        • Some notes on ShebitquIan, Thu Jun 26 14:20
          After looking at the [limited] genealogical data available for the Kushite kings, it still seems to me that the traditional order Shabaqo-Shebitqu is preferable. I can understand the reluctance to... more
          • Re: Some notes on ShebitquFred, Thu Jun 26 14:43
            Dear Ian, All your material is good and well-known, and in fact it is the same as mine, but I consider that there is no definite proof. Some comments : Ian :But Shebitqu belong in the 3rd generation... more
            • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Thu Jun 26 15:12
              Dear Fred, thanks for your prompt response. Why do you want to see a usurper in Shabaqo? We know his relative placement generationwise and his place in the genealogy. In spite of many questionmarks,... more
              • Re: Some notes on ShebitquFred, Thu Jun 26 15:59
                Dear Ian, What i want to say on this matter is that the sources leave a little possibility that the order can be reversed. The traditionnal order is only the result of cruising two data with the... more
                • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Thu Jun 26 21:06
                  Dear Fred, I think the possibility exists, but it is very very slim. There are still a number of points that trouble me. 1. Can you comment on your particular reasons for abandoning the synchronism... more
                  • Re: Some notes on ShebitquFred, Fri Jun 27 08:43
                    Dear Ian, Some quick comments 1. Can you comment on your particular reasons for abandoning the synchronism Shabaqo-Bakenranef, which you defended in the past. FP : the traditionnal synchronism comes... more
                    • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Fri Jun 27 09:32
                      Dear Fred, 1. On the Bakenranef - Shabaqo synchronism. I am familiar with the arguments against it, but I am still willing to accept the conclusion that we have a Year 6 - Year 2 synchronism. The... more
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