Re: Some notes on Shebitqu
Thu Jun 26, 2003 15:59 (XFF:

Dear Ian,

What i want to say on this matter is that the sources leave a little possibility that the order can be reversed. The traditionnal order is only the result of cruising two data with the greek texts : one is false (the synchronism Shabaka-Bakenrenef does not exist and then can not be parralleled with the murder of Bakenrenef by Sabakon) and the other leave a little possibility (the falcon died other than shabataka). In fact in Manetho/Africanus, if we consider that Sabacon is Shabataqa and Sabacos Shabaka the dates fits perfectly : 705/704-690 for Shabaka (14 y)and 713/712-705/704 for Shabataka (8 y). Then if Shabataka arrives only in year 3 (710) in Thebes, it explain why the Assyrian speak of a Piru, king of Egypt c. 712 (it would be Osorkon IV or other tanite king or Bakenrenef) and of a king of Nubia after (c. 707 for example).

Shabaka as usurper is only the explanation of his absence of Kawa stela if he was the redecessor of Taharqa. It is sustained by the glose in Eusebius that says that Tarcos killed his predecessor, now we know that Taharqa was probably the brother or cousin of Shabataka and that he was also his friend and maybe successor designed. If Shabaka took the power suddenly, Taharqa wouyld have good reason to kill him some year later...

Your remark on the fact that maybe Taharqa has no role in the reign of Shabaka led me to another : why the HP Harmekhis does not cite Shabataka, whereas he cites Shabaka, Taharqa and Tanutamon on his statue ? It can be an indication that he became HP in the reign of Shabaka his father and continue his office in the two reigns of Taharqa and tanutamon...and that Shabataka reigned before all that.
All that are ideas in work. I don't want to revolution the 25th dynasty, only indicate that we have many possibiliies in the way of a good chronology (in this case it does not affect really the chronology).



  • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Thu Jun 26 15:12
    Dear Fred, thanks for your prompt response. Why do you want to see a usurper in Shabaqo? We know his relative placement generationwise and his place in the genealogy. In spite of many questionmarks,... more
    • Re: Some notes on Shebitqu — Fred, Thu Jun 26 15:59
      • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Thu Jun 26 21:06
        Dear Fred, I think the possibility exists, but it is very very slim. There are still a number of points that trouble me. 1. Can you comment on your particular reasons for abandoning the synchronism... more
        • Re: Some notes on ShebitquFred, Fri Jun 27 08:43
          Dear Ian, Some quick comments 1. Can you comment on your particular reasons for abandoning the synchronism Shabaqo-Bakenranef, which you defended in the past. FP : the traditionnal synchronism comes... more
          • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Fri Jun 27 09:32
            Dear Fred, 1. On the Bakenranef - Shabaqo synchronism. I am familiar with the arguments against it, but I am still willing to accept the conclusion that we have a Year 6 - Year 2 synchronism. The... more
            • Re: Some notes on ShebitquFred, Sat Jun 28 05:07
              Dear ian, some errors...: Ian : We have no idea who nominated Amenirdis I, but we do know that she became the God's Wife of Amun (as opposed to the apprentice) in the reign of her brother Shabaqo. We ... more
              • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Sat Jun 28 08:38
                Dear Fred, 1. According to Morkot, Shepenwepet I died probably between Year 12 and Year 15 of Shabaqo. Hence Amenirdis I became God's Wife in that reign. 2. Shepenwepet I is depicted in the inner... more
                • Shabaqo-Shebitqo againIan, Sun Jun 29 22:42
                  I recently came across a point that does not seem to have been covered by our recent discussion of whether or not to invert the traditional order of Shabaqo and Shebitqo within the 25th Dynasty. I am ... more
                  • Re: Shabaqo-Shebitqo againAnonymous, Mon Jun 30 16:02
                    Hi Ian! I tried to write to you earlier, but your server appears to systematically refuse anything I send to it. Anyway, I've asked Leo to forward the message (about JEA 88 and a very short PS on... more
                    • Re: Shabaqo-Shebitqo againJoe Baker, Wed Jul 2 07:34
                      Hi all Well-ll-ll, so Fred is investigating a reversal of Shabaka/Shabataka and seems to be quite enthusiastic about it (he has announced it here and on the NC list). And using many of the arguments... more
                    • Re: Shabaqo-Shebitqo againIan, Mon Jun 30 20:04
                      Hi Jean-Fred, Try my address for future correspondence, I do not know why umich does not like your server. You wrote: "The group of stelae from some year 4 (Shoshenq V according to ... more
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