Ian
Re: Some notes on Shebitqu
Thu Jun 26, 2003 21:06
68.41.191.114 (XFF: 202.148.94.2)

Dear Fred,

I think the possibility exists, but it is very very slim. There are still a number of points that trouble me.

1. Can you comment on your particular reasons for abandoning the synchronism Shabaqo-Bakenranef, which you defended in the past.

2. You are right, without independent evidence we cannot be sure that Sabakon is Shabaqo and Sebikhos is Shebitqo rather than the other way around.

3. The fortuitous coincidence of dates resuting from adopting the Africanus figures for Sabakon and Sebikhos and adding them to 690 (which itself cannot be achieved by using any version of Manetho) may be misleading. Do not stake too much on this. I am sure you recall Kitchen's misidentification of Pedubast I because the Eusebius epithome of Manetho gave a Tanite king Petoubastis 25 years of reign, and Pedubast I's dates go up to Year 23.

4. I really do not see why Taharqo was more apt to kill his predecessor (if that is what he did) if this predecessor was his uncle (Shabaqo) rather than his cousin (Shebitqo). When it comes to absolute power, ties of blood, friendship and patronage often come to amount to nothing. While it is true that we cannot be entirely sure that the falcon who flew to heaven vacating the throne for Taharqo was Shebitqo, the theory that Shabaqo was an interloper does not easily fit. If that were the case, Taharqo would comment on the illegitimacy of the preceding regime, perhaps describe it as a time of anarchy (compare Hatshepsut, Ramesses III, etc), and glorify himself as the restitutor orbis in the process. But he does not... the stela reads rather as describing a smooth succession to a legitimate monarch: "I received the crown in Memphis after the Falcon soared to heaven."

5. You keep noting that the absence of references to Shabaqo in the Taharqo stelae indicates that he was a usurper. I suggest you reconsider the logic. You would not have to be concerned with this "problem" if Shabaqo was not the direct predecessor of Taharqo. If the reign of Shebitqo intervened, Taharqo (who "came of age" in Shebitqo's reign) would not need to refer to the reign of a king under whom he was a child and youth performing no important duties. The absence of Shabaqo is only a problem if you insert him between Shebitqo and Taharqo. Which is just one more reason not to do that.

This is the exact inverse of your comment about the HPA Haremakhet. We do not know when he started his high priesthood and perhaps he was not installed by his father Shabaqo but my a later king--just like several Divine Adoratrixes were installed by their brothers. Morkot writes (Black Pharaohs, 218), that he may have been installed by either Shabaqo or Taharqo. In the former case it is possible that Shebitqo and Haremakhet--if both were sons of Shabaqo--were amphimetric competitors or had a falling out, accounting for the omission of Shebitqo. But I think it is more probable that Haremakhet was made HPA later (perhaps by Taharqo) and that Shabaqo is only mentioned there because he is the HPA's father. Taharqo would be mentioned as the king who installed Haremkhat in office, and Tanwetamani was the king to whose reign the statue dates. The omission of Shebitqo would be explained much the same way as the omission of Shabaqo on Taharqo's stela: in Shebitqo's reign Haremakhet was not yet an important official. Speaking of which, if Shabaqo were an interloper eliminated by Taharqo, why would the latter patronize (certainly) and indeed install (probably) the usurper's son in the highly prestigeous, if increasingly less important high priesthood?

The more I think about it, some of your reasons for possibly placing Shebitqo before Shabaqo (e.g., the omission of Shabaqo in Taharqo's stela, the usurpation argument, the career of Haremakhet) turn into reasons for maintaining the traditional order.

Best, Ian

  • Re: Some notes on ShebitquFred, Thu Jun 26 15:59
    Dear Ian, What i want to say on this matter is that the sources leave a little possibility that the order can be reversed. The traditionnal order is only the result of cruising two data with the... more
    • Re: Some notes on Shebitqu — Ian, Thu Jun 26 21:06
      • Re: Some notes on ShebitquFred, Fri Jun 27 08:43
        Dear Ian, Some quick comments 1. Can you comment on your particular reasons for abandoning the synchronism Shabaqo-Bakenranef, which you defended in the past. FP : the traditionnal synchronism comes... more
        • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Fri Jun 27 09:32
          Dear Fred, 1. On the Bakenranef - Shabaqo synchronism. I am familiar with the arguments against it, but I am still willing to accept the conclusion that we have a Year 6 - Year 2 synchronism. The... more
          • Re: Some notes on ShebitquFred, Sat Jun 28 05:07
            Dear ian, some errors...: Ian : We have no idea who nominated Amenirdis I, but we do know that she became the God's Wife of Amun (as opposed to the apprentice) in the reign of her brother Shabaqo. We ... more
            • Re: Some notes on ShebitquIan, Sat Jun 28 08:38
              Dear Fred, 1. According to Morkot, Shepenwepet I died probably between Year 12 and Year 15 of Shabaqo. Hence Amenirdis I became God's Wife in that reign. 2. Shepenwepet I is depicted in the inner... more
              • Shabaqo-Shebitqo againIan, Sun Jun 29 22:42
                I recently came across a point that does not seem to have been covered by our recent discussion of whether or not to invert the traditional order of Shabaqo and Shebitqo within the 25th Dynasty. I am ... more
                • Re: Shabaqo-Shebitqo againAnonymous, Mon Jun 30 16:02
                  Hi Ian! I tried to write to you earlier, but your server appears to systematically refuse anything I send to it. Anyway, I've asked Leo to forward the message (about JEA 88 and a very short PS on... more
                  • Re: Shabaqo-Shebitqo againJoe Baker, Wed Jul 2 07:34
                    Hi all Well-ll-ll, so Fred is investigating a reversal of Shabaka/Shabataka and seems to be quite enthusiastic about it (he has announced it here and on the NC list). And using many of the arguments... more
                    • Re: Shabaqo-Shebitqo againChris, Wed Jul 2 19:26
                      I have just received a copy of an interesting article by Stephanie Dalley, "Yaba, Atalya and the Foreign Policy of Late Assyrian Kings", SAAB 12:2 (1998) 83-98. Its central argument is that these two ... more
                    • Re: Shabaqo-Shebitqo. Try it again JoeJoe Baker, Wed Jul 2 07:40
                      Hi all Well-ll-ll, so Fred is investigating a reversal of Shabaka/Shabataka and seems to be quite enthusiastic about it (he has announced it here and on the NC list). And using many of the arguments... more
                  • Re: Shabaqo-Shebitqo againIan, Mon Jun 30 20:04
                    Hi Jean-Fred, Try my imladjov@yahoo.com address for future correspondence, I do not know why umich does not like your server. You wrote: "The group of stelae from some year 4 (Shoshenq V according to ... more
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