re:No co-regency - Amenhotep and Akhnaten
Sat Jan 22, 2005 03:10 (XFF:

Hi Joe (and anyone else)

1) Ramose: he was once thought to be northern vizier in succession to Amunhotep. The fact that Amunhotep is shown at the endowment of the mortuary temple of Amuhotep son of Hapu in year 31 strongly suggests he was southern vizier by this time and may have been all along. Ramose's attestation in year 30 (items donated for the jubilee) is his last - he is not attested as vizier in year 34.
The most likely explanation (Aldred's view) is that Ramose was invested as vizier by Amunhotep IV in year 28/year 1 but died in year 30 or 31, before the move to Akhetaten and the change of name. His tomb was unfinished (the investiture scene, in the Amarna style, is only partly cut). One of the points Aldred makes to establish the date of this tomb is that the 4 numbered prophets are shown, but only one of them is named - SiMut, 4PA, who was promoted to 2PA (after the death of Aanen) later in the reign of Amunhotep III.
Aperel (I must admit I like Marianne Luban's suggestion that this be read as Abdiel) is northern vizier and HP of aten (at Memphis? tomb at Sakkara rediscovered 1987) as a contemporary of two other men who have tombs at Akhetaten - Meryre (II), HP of aten at Akhetaten itself, and Nakht(-paaten), vizier (at Akhetaten?). All 3 men can easily be appointees of late in the reign (after year 9) so there is no conflict.
The tomb of Kheruef - the argument about the 3rd jubilee would certainly stump me, but not Aldred. He says that as steward of Tiye Kheruef was a servant of Amunhotep III. The reliefs showing Amunhotep IV and his mother would have been finished first, and the whole tomb was decorated in the traditional art style. His "stance" would be effectively protected by Amunhotep III until the latter's death, when Kheruef's tomb was attacked.
(In fact I side with Aldred here - there must be a number of examples of people who did not leap on the new religion bandwagon straight away, without them all being killed or dismissed from office. If there was a coregency of the length postulated, the proportion of such people would be even higher.)
2) On the transactions: Aldred cited in particular Berlin 9784. The papyrus is written by a scribe Tutu, and records transactions for year 27 (AIII), year 2 and year 3 (AIV) of a certain Mes or Mose. The transactions seem to have been written down at the same time (although for what reason is not clear) so the lifespan of the scribe does not enter into it. However there are 12 witnesses to the year 27 deal, and 14 to the year 3 deal. 3 (or perhaps 4) of these are the same men; the other party to the deal is the same in years 27 and 2, and the slave woman Henut appears in year 27 and year 3. [My personal feeling, making the argument the wrong way, is that "year 27" is miswritten - the "20" is quite slapdash and it may be possible to read "30" here]
3) The jar dockets argument: given your statistics in your previous post, surely the "gap" at Akhetaten after year 31 makes more sense with a coregency than without. If all the people at Akhetaten were direct servants of Amunhotep IV most of their "stuff" would have his name on it. If those yeardates (from year 4 = year 31) corresponded to the higher numbers of Amunhotep III, you would expect the latter to be largely or totally absent. If they were separate real years, and we have dates for years 28,30, where are the stray dates from 31 to 38? You have effectively two haystacks, one (according to you) later than the other. The earlier one has no evidence of the later. But the later one does have evidence of the earlier. The only yeardates of AIV/Akhenaten you might expect to find at Malkata would be 1-4 in any abundance; less than a quarter of a shorter reign. Given the year 28, the yeardates of AIII you might expect to find at Amarna would be 28-38, over a quarter of a long reign. The number of such dates found at Amarna should give you a statistical approximation of the converse, and why none have so far been found.
4) Jubilees of aten: in JEA 45, 19ff Aldred argues for the correlation of these. He cites as follows:
Year 29/30 = Year 2 aten jubilee(and year 3)
Year 33/34 = Year 6 aten jubilee
Year 37/38 = Year 9 aten jubilee
Because the sed festival fell in two regnal years, occupying the last few days of one royal year and the first few of the next, there is a certain variation in the yeardates recorded for each event. For this argument to be correct, Akhenaten's accession day would have to be approximately the same as his father's (otherwise you would not have the year 9 datum) and Amunhotep III would probably have a year 39.
I do not have any data on a year 4 aten jubilee. That would also be a big spanner in this theory's works.
5) Let us look at the time-scale you suggest.
From the death of AIII to the arrival of Keliya in Egypt 3 months; for the subsequent arrival of the wooden statues in Mitanni another 3 months (slower to transport, taken as twice the time). For the new messengers (probably with a rocket up the backside) to arrive in Egypt to ask for the gold statues - 1.5 months.
Total elapsed time - 7.5 months. Allow for delays (diplomatic and physical) another 1.5 months. This is still at least 3 months short of the required time. You might be able to pad this out (e.g. by making Hamasshe wait until the funeral, a further 70 days, before setting out) but I think it is a stretch.
I agree with your conclusion that the "copy" is Mitannian, not archive. There are several instances of "copies" preserved in the Amarna letters; they are not always exact.

Finally - yes, on your point about the goddess-statue. Sorry to have intruded it into the discussion at all; I merely borrowed an argument I had read for a short coregency, based more on the timeline discussed than on the presence or absence of any statue. I do not agree with the argument in any way, so my apologies.



  • re:No co-regency - Amenhotep and AkhnatenJoe Baker, Fri Jan 21 19:29
    Hi Kim Here are some answers I would supply to your "devil's advocate" position. "a) stylistic observations regarding the tomb of the vizier Ramose - he has both standard NK style and later Amarna... more
    • Re: No co-regency--Amenhotep and AkhnatenMarianne Luban, Sat Jan 22 21:47
      I may have missed something--who is the vizier Amenhotep? I assume you are referring to Amenhotep son of Hapu? Three viziers? I don't know about this. Ramose had his tomb at Thebes, not Saqqara. Had... more
      • Vizier AmenhotepAndrew Gordon, Tue Jun 28 20:46
        The vizier Amenhotep is not to be confused with the Son of Hapu. See my article in MDAIK 39 (1983), 71-80 Where I was able to identify his tomb at Thebes. Andrew Gordon
        • Vizier AmenhotepKim, Fri Jul 1 02:45
          Dear Andrew Many thanks for your comment (and indeed for identifying the tomb!!). I think our original discussion got bogged down in too many Amunhoteps i.e. the steward at Memphis; the son of Hapu;... more
          • vizier AmenhotepAnonymous, Fri Nov 18 12:40
            Hello, I have a little question. Do you know the exact number of the Theban tomb of vizier Amenhotep Huy.In my book The Amarna Age by Frederick J. Giles they didn't mentioned the number, they only... more
            • Re: vizier AmenhotepAnonymous, Fri Dec 2 08:52
              Hello, Terri Thanks for the information, Rozette
            • Re: vizier AmenhotepTerry E, Sat Nov 19 03:18
              Dear Rozette, You can find both the tomb of Amenemhat Surer and the tomb of Amenhotep Huy (described as King's Son of Kush, not vizier. I don't know if this was the same person) on the tomb list at:... more
    • re:No co-regency - Amenhotep and Akhnaten — Kim, Sat Jan 22 03:10
      • re:No co-regency - Amenhotep and AkhnatenJoe Baker, Mon Jan 24 04:01
        Hi Kim The round trip, Memphis-Washshukani-Memphis is some 2500 kilometres. About the same distance as the Persian royal road from Sardis to Susa, which Herodotos reports took 3 months to travel -... more
        • Dear Joe, I agree with your points generally, and concede that it could have taken 12 months or more for the various trips. I do not agree about your suggestion that AIV was in Thebes, to pad out the ... more
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