Marianne Luban
Re: Senenmut's Ceiling
Wed Feb 13, 2008 19:47
67.150.9.25 (XFF: 81.106.124.212)

Nope. 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look:

1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut

1534 minus 16 = 1518 = beginning of reign of Thutmose I, already being a man with a wife [or wives] and children when he succeeded Amenhotep I.

1518 minus 8= 1510 = death of Thutmose I, beginning reign of Thutmose II

1510 minus 5 =1505= death of Thutmose II

1505 minus 23 =1482 = Year 23 of Thutmose III, fitting New Moon Cycle

This would mean that Hatshepsut was well into middle age in Year 21 of Thutmose III, when she was supposed to have died [or maybe was ousted]. Now, the reigns of TI and TII can be otherwise distributed because T II only has 3 attested years. But, probably, their entire reigns encompass 13 years, per Manetho, as I think he lumps them together under "Chebron" or "Chebres". Unless Hatshepsut had been born in at least 1534 BC, the mummy that Z. Hawass touts as being hers can't be--because it's the mummy of a woman of around 50. The mummy of T II has been judged to be that of a man around the age of 30. If he died in 1505--he would have had to be born sometime around 1534 BC, himself, being either older or younger than Hatshepsut. Can T I have been married to a royal lady prior to the death of Amenhotep I? Probably he was, as he had already been designated the successor, with A I realizing he may never have a son. A I, some think, might even have been gay. Were records kept of the positions of the heavenly bodies during the months in 1534 BC? Why not?

  • Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 10:34
    This is not the most comprehensive overview of the astronomical ceiling of Senenmut but it does cite the date I have seen before, calculated according to the "southern sky"--1534 BC.... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingChris Bennett, Thu Feb 14 10:00
      Marianne -- Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut ... more
      • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 19:24
        CB: Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut in... more
        • Re: Senenmut's CeilingCHris, Fri Feb 15 19:50
          Basically, he gives a number of reasons why von Spaeth's claimed identification of Mars cannot be right. This is of course a different matter from whether Leitz' own dating is right. They can't both... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingGeorge R., Wed Feb 13 19:56
      Interesting, Marianne. Here's another Website on Senenmut's astronomical ceiling: http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v021.htm . I don't see the connection you're making between "year 7" and the... more
    • Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — Marianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 19:47
      • Re: Senenmut's CeilingGeorge R., Thu Feb 14 10:39
        Hi, Marianne. You wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of... more
        • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 20:14
          GR: Thanks for that explanation. You begin with the hypothesis that "1534 [is the] Year of the birth of Hatshepsut." I still don't see why Senenmut would construct an astronomical ceiling in one of... more
      • All Roads Lead to 1570 BCMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 23:55
        In his "Chronicle of the Pharaohs", Peter Clayton has the 18th Dynasty starting like this: Ahmose I 1570-1546 24 yrs [Josephus gives 25 yrs, 4 mos.] Amenhotep I 1551-1524 27 years [Clayton doesn't... more
        • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 02:28
          We have the eruption of Thera in 1613 BCE, an inscription from the reign of Ahmose I seemingly recording its after effects, and Theran pumice in 18th dynasty strata. If the ceiling is a snapshot of... more
          • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCMarianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 09:05
            Not everyone is in agreement that the "Tempest Stela" of Ahmose I records the eruption of the Theran volcano. [See Allen] I used to argue for that, but I'm not so sure now. And you know where Bietak... more
            • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 09:53
              Good points. I guess if Senenmut had to consult records, as opposed to being an eyewitness of the "event" in 1534, the value of the astronomical ceiling is diminished. For the "snapshot" could be of... more
              • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCGeorge R., Thu Feb 14 10:52
                Hi Tory. You quote some interesting dates for Thutmose III. I'm using this reference for the "Annals of Thutmose III": "The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East," Prof. Charles F. Horne. New ... more
                • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 11:05
                  Hi George, My mistake. Not III-Shemu 9, but I-Shemu 4. This is from an inscription on the 7th pylon, Karnak. Regards, Tory
                  • Hatshepsut's Heb-sedMarianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 13:42
                    I wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus... more
                    • Astronomical DatingTerry E, Fri Feb 15 05:31
                      Dear Marianne, I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the... more
                    • Re: Hatshepsut's Heb-sedTory, Thu Feb 14 17:24
                      Yes, that is 'no moon' at dawn on II-Peret 30 in 1530 BCE (8-Mar Julian), and 'no moon' at dawn on I-Shemu 21 in 1532 BCE (28-May Julian). Regards, Tory
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