Not everyone is in agreement that the "Tempest Stela" of Ahmose I records the eruption of the Theran volcano. [See Allen] I used to argue for that, but I'm not so sure now. And you know where Bietak places the event. Senenmut would have had to consult records, which more than one ancient historian claimed the Egyptians kept of the heavenly positions. If the ceiling reflects a date, it would have had to be a significant one. But the New Moon data can't be ignored, either. Here, once again, are the possible dates. They can only occur in increments of 25 years.
1507 1482 1457
Senenmut's is the prototype of the astronomical ceilings. I don't believe there was anything "random" about it. If you want to ask "how did Senenmut" know the positions of the heavenly bodies, then you'll have to ask "how would anyone", the artist who painted the ceiling. Was that artist an astronomer? The thing was obviously executed according to a plan. Same goes for the northern sky. I like to draw, paint, but I'll be damned if I could execute an astronomical ceiling--unless someone with better knowledge mapped one out for me.
But, if you can do something with those New Moon dates that can lead back to 1613, feel free. But you'll have to take all the data into consideration, including mummified remains. I did.
This is not the most comprehensive overview of the astronomical ceiling of Senenmut but it does cite the date I have seen before, calculated according to the "southern sky"--1534 BC.... more
Marianne -- Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut ... more
CB: Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut in... more
Basically, he gives a number of reasons why von Spaeth's claimed identification of Mars cannot be right. This is of course a different matter from whether Leitz' own dating is right. They can't both... more
Interesting, Marianne. Here's another Website on Senenmut's astronomical ceiling: http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v021.htm . I don't see the connection you're making between "year 7" and the... more
Nope. 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus 16... more
Hi, Marianne. You wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of... more
GR: Thanks for that explanation. You begin with the hypothesis that "1534 [is the] Year of the birth of Hatshepsut." I still don't see why Senenmut would construct an astronomical ceiling in one of... more
In his "Chronicle of the Pharaohs", Peter Clayton has the 18th Dynasty starting like this: Ahmose I 1570-1546 24 yrs [Josephus gives 25 yrs, 4 mos.] Amenhotep I 1551-1524 27 years [Clayton doesn't... more
We have the eruption of Thera in 1613 BCE, an inscription from the reign of Ahmose I seemingly recording its after effects, and Theran pumice in 18th dynasty strata. If the ceiling is a snapshot of... more
Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BC — Marianne Luban,Thu Feb 14 09:05
Good points. I guess if Senenmut had to consult records, as opposed to being an eyewitness of the "event" in 1534, the value of the astronomical ceiling is diminished. For the "snapshot" could be of... more
Hi Tory. You quote some interesting dates for Thutmose III. I'm using this reference for the "Annals of Thutmose III": "The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East," Prof. Charles F. Horne. New ... more
I wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus... more
Dear Marianne, I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the... more
TE: I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the attraction of trying ... more
Dear Marianne, Thank you for your comments. First an apology: I did not intend my post to be a blast at you or your chronological views although I realise on re-reading it why you think I might have... more
Hello, all -- a different subject just for a moment. There are different views about the dates on which Sabbath years were kept after the exile. Some conclude that a Sabbath commenced in 38 bc,... more
Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
Hi David, Or -- if we take 573 BCE to be the year of a Yovel (Jubilee), the 25th year of the captivity as reported in Ezekiel 40:1, then the fall of 515 BCE would be the start of the first year of a... more
Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
Yes, that is 'no moon' at dawn on II-Peret 30 in 1530 BCE (8-Mar Julian), and 'no moon' at dawn on I-Shemu 21 in 1532 BCE (28-May Julian). Regards, Tory
So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox rabbi ... more
Tory: So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox ... more
Oh--and BTW, in my own work, "The Exodus Chronicles: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" [2003] I also proposed Senenmut as a candidate for... more
You know, this is pretty wild. That date for the birth of Moses works out every time. The Torah says that Moses didn't return to Egypt until he was 80 "because all who had sought his life were dead". ... more
Naturally, wouldn't you know that some ancient authors, like Eusebius and Artapanus failed to believe that the Hebrews left Egypt 430 years after they had arrived--and that's one of the reasons... more
Hello Marianne, Your comments are very interesting and informative. I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have... more
Cullom: I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have seemed preferrable to have Moses and God best a famous king of... more
Hello Marianne, Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? I suppose Thutmosis II was succeeded by a son-in-law since his... more
Cullom: Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? ML: Nope. And Ahmose was succeeded by a son. Cullom: I suppose... more
Oops--pressed some wrong button. Hatshepsut, her Speos Artemidos inscription, says the "Aamu" were ensconced at Avaris "with vagabonds among them". Now, the Aamu were realistically depicted in a tomb ... more
Hello Marianne, I should have said that Thutmosis I was succeeded by a "son-in-law" since his son Thutmosis II married his daughter Hatshepsut. The story of Abisha is remarkably similar to the story... more
Cullom: In your earlier post you related that Egypt was ruled by Palmanothes AND Chenephres so Chenephres must have been more than an important official. ML: Why? He can have been a local lord.... more