Marianne Luban
Re: Senenmut's Ceiling
Fri Feb 15, 2008 20:14
67.150.13.88 (XFF: 81.106.124.212)

GR: Thanks for that explanation. You begin with the hypothesis that "1534 [is the] Year of the birth of Hatshepsut." I still don't see why Senenmut would construct an astronomical ceiling in one of his own tombs to celebrate the birth of Hatshepsut. Isn't it his tomb? And doesn't the ceiling record a singular astronomical event, and not just any old date -- meaning that if it does, by coincidence, celebrate someone's birth it would be his own? Maybe it was Senenmut's ability to foretell (or even just to illustrate) this astronomical alignment as a young man that earned him a position in the King's court, eh? Anyway, all I meant was that Senenmut could have been much older than Hatshepsut.

ML: This particular tomb of Senenmut is *within* the environs of Hatshepsut's own mortuary temple in the Theban necropolis! Hatshepsut was Senenmut's royal mistress, the one he supported and to whom he owed everything. Nobody I know of had more titles [and more extant statues] from that reign than Senenmut. Separating the northern and southern skies on that ceiling are some bands of text and, separating those bands, in the largest hieroglyphs, are the titles and cartouche of Hatshepsut.

Now, it is quite evident from the tomb of Senenmut's parents that, before his rise to Hatshepsut's "favorite", his family had been quite poor and his father a nobody. Of the persons in that tomb, the only one who had a relatively rich interment was Senenmut's mother, who had obviously lived long enough to see her son grow prosperous. The others, including the father, had nothing, not even a proper mummification. Obviously, their remains had simply been gathered from somewhere else and placed in that little tomb with Senenmut's mother when she died. If I am correct and that ceiling reflects someone's birthday, it would be more likely that it was Hatshepsut's--she of the so-called "divine birth", her mother having been impregnated by the god, Amun, in the guise of Thutmose I. More practically, it would have been far more likely that the birth date of a girl whose family was so close to royalty would have been recalled than that of a son of poor folk. Since such births were not recorded in any bureau, it's even possible that Senenmut didn't know the date of his own birth.

If records of the heavenly bodies were kept [and the ancients claim the Egyptians were wonderful about that] then they would probably have been dated by the priestly calendar, as the priests were in charge of such things. But their calendar, being about festivals, co-existed with the civil calendar. Regardless of all that, I think Hatshepsut would have known in what year of what king she was born [as Senenmut would have, too] but even what day of the month--could have found that out by some means or another.

Do I have any way of knowing for certain that the ceiling depicts Hatshepsut's birthday? Of course not! All I tried to show is that, if the date of von Spaeth is correct, then that is not a far-fetched reason for it, according to a chronology I can accept.

  • Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 10:34
    This is not the most comprehensive overview of the astronomical ceiling of Senenmut but it does cite the date I have seen before, calculated according to the "southern sky"--1534 BC.... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingChris Bennett, Thu Feb 14 10:00
      Marianne -- Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut ... more
      • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 19:24
        CB: Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut in... more
        • Re: Senenmut's CeilingCHris, Fri Feb 15 19:50
          Basically, he gives a number of reasons why von Spaeth's claimed identification of Mars cannot be right. This is of course a different matter from whether Leitz' own dating is right. They can't both... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingGeorge R., Wed Feb 13 19:56
      Interesting, Marianne. Here's another Website on Senenmut's astronomical ceiling: http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v021.htm . I don't see the connection you're making between "year 7" and the... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 19:47
      Nope. 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus 16... more
      • Re: Senenmut's CeilingGeorge R., Thu Feb 14 10:39
        Hi, Marianne. You wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of... more
        • Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — Marianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 20:14
      • All Roads Lead to 1570 BCMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 23:55
        In his "Chronicle of the Pharaohs", Peter Clayton has the 18th Dynasty starting like this: Ahmose I 1570-1546 24 yrs [Josephus gives 25 yrs, 4 mos.] Amenhotep I 1551-1524 27 years [Clayton doesn't... more
        • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 02:28
          We have the eruption of Thera in 1613 BCE, an inscription from the reign of Ahmose I seemingly recording its after effects, and Theran pumice in 18th dynasty strata. If the ceiling is a snapshot of... more
          • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCMarianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 09:05
            Not everyone is in agreement that the "Tempest Stela" of Ahmose I records the eruption of the Theran volcano. [See Allen] I used to argue for that, but I'm not so sure now. And you know where Bietak... more
            • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 09:53
              Good points. I guess if Senenmut had to consult records, as opposed to being an eyewitness of the "event" in 1534, the value of the astronomical ceiling is diminished. For the "snapshot" could be of... more
              • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCGeorge R., Thu Feb 14 10:52
                Hi Tory. You quote some interesting dates for Thutmose III. I'm using this reference for the "Annals of Thutmose III": "The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East," Prof. Charles F. Horne. New ... more
                • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 11:05
                  Hi George, My mistake. Not III-Shemu 9, but I-Shemu 4. This is from an inscription on the 7th pylon, Karnak. Regards, Tory
                  • Hatshepsut's Heb-sedMarianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 13:42
                    I wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus... more
                    • Astronomical DatingTerry E, Fri Feb 15 05:31
                      Dear Marianne, I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the... more
                      • Re: Astronomical DatingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 16:54
                        TE: I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the attraction of trying ... more
                        • Re: Astronomical DatingTerry E, Sat Feb 16 04:29
                          Dear Marianne, Thank you for your comments. First an apology: I did not intend my post to be a blast at you or your chronological views although I realise on re-reading it why you think I might have... more
                        • Astronomical DatingDavid Rice, Sat Feb 16 01:54
                          > Marianne (or others) -- do you have a convenient list of these at hand? -- David Rice
                          • Post Exhilic Sabbath YearsDavid Rice, Sun Feb 17 00:09
                            Hello, all -- a different subject just for a moment. There are different views about the dates on which Sabbath years were kept after the exile. Some conclude that a Sabbath commenced in 38 bc,... more
                            • Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sun Feb 17 10:27
                              Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
                              • Re: Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sat Feb 23 19:25
                                Hi David, Or -- if we take 573 BCE to be the year of a Yovel (Jubilee), the 25th year of the captivity as reported in Ezekiel 40:1, then the fall of 515 BCE would be the start of the first year of a... more
                            • Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sun Feb 17 10:25
                              Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
                    • Re: Hatshepsut's Heb-sedTory, Thu Feb 14 17:24
                      Yes, that is 'no moon' at dawn on II-Peret 30 in 1530 BCE (8-Mar Julian), and 'no moon' at dawn on I-Shemu 21 in 1532 BCE (28-May Julian). Regards, Tory
                      • V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 05:52
                        Another conjunction and date from the very interesting Von Spaeth: http://www.moses-egypt.net/book1/moses1-cap1_en.asp
                        • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesTory, Sun Feb 17 06:51
                          So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox rabbi ... more
                          • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 09:38
                            Tory: So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox ... more
                            • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 10:34
                              Oh--and BTW, in my own work, "The Exodus Chronicles: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" [2003] I also proposed Senenmut as a candidate for... more
                              • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 22:29
                                You know, this is pretty wild. That date for the birth of Moses works out every time. The Torah says that Moses didn't return to Egypt until he was 80 "because all who had sought his life were dead". ... more
                                • But, as usual--disagreement even in antiquityMarianne Luban, Tue Feb 19 06:14
                                  Naturally, wouldn't you know that some ancient authors, like Eusebius and Artapanus failed to believe that the Hebrews left Egypt 430 years after they had arrived--and that's one of the reasons... more
                                  • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Tue Feb 19 19:50
                                    Hello Marianne, Your comments are very interesting and informative. I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have... more
                                    • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Tue Feb 19 23:55
                                      Cullom: I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have seemed preferrable to have Moses and God best a famous king of... more
                                      • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Wed Feb 20 18:23
                                        Hello Marianne, Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? I suppose Thutmosis II was succeeded by a son-in-law since his... more
                                        • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityAnonymous, Fri Feb 22 02:02
                                          Cullom: Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? ML: Nope. And Ahmose was succeeded by a son. Cullom: I suppose... more
                                          • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 22 02:13
                                            Oops--pressed some wrong button. Hatshepsut, her Speos Artemidos inscription, says the "Aamu" were ensconced at Avaris "with vagabonds among them". Now, the Aamu were realistically depicted in a tomb ... more
                                            • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Sat Feb 23 08:51
                                              Hello Marianne, I should have said that Thutmosis I was succeeded by a "son-in-law" since his son Thutmosis II married his daughter Hatshepsut. The story of Abisha is remarkably similar to the story... more
                                              • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Sat Feb 23 15:55
                                                Cullom: In your earlier post you related that Egypt was ruled by Palmanothes AND Chenephres so Chenephres must have been more than an important official. ML: Why? He can have been a local lord.... more
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