The Ancient Near Eastern Chronology Forum - Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of Moses

Tory: So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox rabbi I am aware of who would agree about the identities (not the dates) and who has published his ideas on this.

ML: It could be where he's headed. I haven't read v.S.'s book but the first three chapters are available at that website. He's already made it plain, from what I can tell, that he thinks Hatshepsut must have been "pharaoh's daughter". Of course, Hatshepsut is the most famous gal of the dynasty, next to Nefertiti, but there were a lot of other "pharaoh's daughters" included in that dynasty, not quite so prominent. Funny thing, though, among the family of Thutmose I, including sons Thutmose, Amenmose and Wadjmose, there was a certain mysterious "Ramose"--at least according to J. Tyldesly. But I don't know anything about him. Also rather oddly, in that famous tomb scene called "Lords of the West", depicting defunct kings, queens and princes, there is a certain prince whose name "seems" to be Ramose and he sits there rather prettily holding a flower to his nose. What Ramose that could be nobody knows or why he was so famous as to be included in that scene.

Senenmut? I don't know how Hatshepsut could have adopted him as a child as all signs seem to point to the notion that he was older than she--depicted as aged and wrinkled on some informal portraits from around Year 7. I don't have the actual URL right now, but anyone who wants to go to my homepage

http://www.geocities.com/scribelist/marianne.html

can read about Senenmut and see portraits of him there.

Anyway, I thought I knew a lot of tidbits from rabbinical lterature, midrashim, but that one item from Rabbi Abrabanel had escaped me about what was going on in the realm of Pisces around the time Moses was born.

Senenmut's Ceiling — Marianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 10:34

This is not the most comprehensive overview of the astronomical ceiling of Senenmut but it does cite the date I have seen before, calculated according to the "southern sky"--1534 BC.... more
- Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — Chris Bennett, Thu Feb 14 10:00
  
  Marianne -- Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut ... more
- - Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — Marianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 19:24
    
    CB: Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut in... more
  - - Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — CHris, Fri Feb 15 19:50
      
      Basically, he gives a number of reasons why von Spaeth's claimed identification of Mars cannot be right. This is of course a different matter from whether Leitz' own dating is right. They can't both... more
- Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — George R., Wed Feb 13 19:56
  
  Interesting, Marianne. Here's another Website on Senenmut's astronomical ceiling: http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v021.htm . I don't see the connection you're making between "year 7" and the... more
- Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — Marianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 19:47
  
  Nope. 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus 16... more
- - Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — George R., Thu Feb 14 10:39
    
    Hi, Marianne. You wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of... more
  - - Re: Senenmut's Ceiling — Marianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 20:14
      
      GR: Thanks for that explanation. You begin with the hypothesis that "1534 [is the] Year of the birth of Hatshepsut." I still don't see why Senenmut would construct an astronomical ceiling in one of... more
  - All Roads Lead to 1570 BC — Marianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 23:55
    
    In his "Chronicle of the Pharaohs", Peter Clayton has the 18th Dynasty starting like this: Ahmose I 1570-1546 24 yrs [Josephus gives 25 yrs, 4 mos.] Amenhotep I 1551-1524 27 years [Clayton doesn't... more
  - - Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BC — Tory, Thu Feb 14 02:28
      
      We have the eruption of Thera in 1613 BCE, an inscription from the reign of Ahmose I seemingly recording its after effects, and Theran pumice in 18th dynasty strata. If the ceiling is a snapshot of... more
    - - Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BC — Marianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 09:05
        
        Not everyone is in agreement that the "Tempest Stela" of Ahmose I records the eruption of the Theran volcano. [See Allen] I used to argue for that, but I'm not so sure now. And you know where Bietak... more
      - Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BC — Tory, Thu Feb 14 09:53
        
        Good points. I guess if Senenmut had to consult records, as opposed to being an eyewitness of the "event" in 1534, the value of the astronomical ceiling is diminished. For the "snapshot" could be of... more
        Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BC — George R., Thu Feb 14 10:52
        
        Hi Tory. You quote some interesting dates for Thutmose III. I'm using this reference for the "Annals of Thutmose III": "The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East," Prof. Charles F. Horne. New ... more
        Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BC — Tory, Thu Feb 14 11:05
        
        Hi George, My mistake. Not III-Shemu 9, but I-Shemu 4. This is from an inscription on the 7th pylon, Karnak. Regards, Tory
        Hatshepsut's Heb-sed — Marianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 13:42
        
        I wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus... more
        Astronomical Dating — Terry E, Fri Feb 15 05:31
        
        Dear Marianne, I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the... more
        Re: Astronomical Dating — Marianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 16:54
        
        TE: I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the attraction of trying ... more
        Re: Astronomical Dating — Terry E, Sat Feb 16 04:29
        
        Dear Marianne, Thank you for your comments. First an apology: I did not intend my post to be a blast at you or your chronological views although I realise on re-reading it why you think I might have... more
        Astronomical Dating — David Rice, Sat Feb 16 01:54
        
        > Marianne (or others) -- do you have a convenient list of these at hand? -- David Rice
        Post Exhilic Sabbath Years — David Rice, Sun Feb 17 00:09
        
        Hello, all -- a different subject just for a moment. There are different views about the dates on which Sabbath years were kept after the exile. Some conclude that a Sabbath commenced in 38 bc,... more
        Post-Exilic Sabbath Years — Tory, Sun Feb 17 10:27
        
        Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
        Re: Post-Exilic Sabbath Years — Tory, Sat Feb 23 19:25
        
        Hi David, Or -- if we take 573 BCE to be the year of a Yovel (Jubilee), the 25th year of the captivity as reported in Ezekiel 40:1, then the fall of 515 BCE would be the start of the first year of a... more
        Post-Exilic Sabbath Years — Tory, Sun Feb 17 10:25
        
        Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
        Re: Hatshepsut's Heb-sed — Tory, Thu Feb 14 17:24
        
        Yes, that is 'no moon' at dawn on II-Peret 30 in 1530 BCE (8-Mar Julian), and 'no moon' at dawn on I-Shemu 21 in 1532 BCE (28-May Julian). Regards, Tory
        V. Spaeth and the Birth of Moses — Marianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 05:52
        
        Another conjunction and date from the very interesting Von Spaeth: http://www.moses-egypt.net/book1/moses1-cap1_en.asp
        Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of Moses — Tory, Sun Feb 17 06:51
        
        So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox rabbi ... more
        Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of Moses — Marianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 09:38
        Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of Moses — Marianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 10:34
        
        Oh--and BTW, in my own work, "The Exodus Chronicles: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" [2003] I also proposed Senenmut as a candidate for... more
        Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of Moses — Marianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 22:29
        
        You know, this is pretty wild. That date for the birth of Moses works out every time. The Torah says that Moses didn't return to Egypt until he was 80 "because all who had sought his life were dead". ... more
        But, as usual--disagreement even in antiquity — Marianne Luban, Tue Feb 19 06:14
        
        Naturally, wouldn't you know that some ancient authors, like Eusebius and Artapanus failed to believe that the Hebrews left Egypt 430 years after they had arrived--and that's one of the reasons... more
        But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquity — Cullom, Tue Feb 19 19:50
        
        Hello Marianne, Your comments are very interesting and informative. I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have... more
        Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquity — Marianne Luban, Tue Feb 19 23:55
        
        Cullom: I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have seemed preferrable to have Moses and God best a famous king of... more
        But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquity — Cullom, Wed Feb 20 18:23
        
        Hello Marianne, Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? I suppose Thutmosis II was succeeded by a son-in-law since his... more
        Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquity — Anonymous, Fri Feb 22 02:02
        
        Cullom: Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? ML: Nope. And Ahmose was succeeded by a son. Cullom: I suppose... more
        Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquity — Marianne Luban, Fri Feb 22 02:13
        
        Oops--pressed some wrong button. Hatshepsut, her Speos Artemidos inscription, says the "Aamu" were ensconced at Avaris "with vagabonds among them". Now, the Aamu were realistically depicted in a tomb ... more
        But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquity — Cullom, Sat Feb 23 08:51
        
        Hello Marianne, I should have said that Thutmosis I was succeeded by a "son-in-law" since his son Thutmosis II married his daughter Hatshepsut. The story of Abisha is remarkably similar to the story... more
        But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquity — Marianne Luban, Sat Feb 23 15:55
        
        Cullom: In your earlier post you related that Egypt was ruled by Palmanothes AND Chenephres so Chenephres must have been more than an important official. ML: Why? He can have been a local lord.... more

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