Marianne Luban
Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of Moses
Sun Feb 17, 2008 22:29
66.53.219.122 (XFF: 81.106.124.212)

You know, this is pretty wild. That date for the birth of Moses works out every time. The Torah says that Moses didn't return to Egypt until he was 80 "because all who had sought his life were dead". 80 years from 1534 comes to 1454, around the time that Amenhotep II received the kingship after T III died. With 1570 as his starting point for the dynasty, P. Clayton gets 1453 as the assession date for A II. That's just a year off--or maybe not even that, depending upon when A II was actually crowned, the civil date vis a vis the New Year, whatever.

Then the Torah says the Hebrews left--430 years after the first ones had come to live in Egypt. That brings us back to 1884 BCE, the time of Amenemhat II and Senusret II. Clayton says of this era, "There is also an apparent increase at this time in the number of Levantine names recorded in Egypt, presumably belonging to those brought in as domestic servants."

Amenhotep II is generally regarded, in retrospect, as a very cruel man, worse than his father. He didn't even have the intellectual leanings of T III to redeem him. But, did he drown in the sea as soon as he became king? Of course not. He was only about 18 when he succeeded and reigned for many years. However, there is something else. One of the last acts, apparently, of the vizier Rekhmire, was the installation of A II on the throne. Rekhmire's family had served the royals for three generations, ever since the grand-father, Amethu [also called "Ahmose", after the "liberator" pharaoh] and his wife, TaAmethu, had risen to importance. The names of these people means "foreigner".
Anyway, the man who changed his name to Ahmose was a "governor of the town and vizier" under Thutmose III and he had a tomb in the Theban necropolis, TT83--as did Rekhmire. All of the sons of this Ahmose became very important men but, after Rekhmire, the family served no more and there is no sign that Rekhmire was ever buried in his own tomb, TT100. Rekhmire was, apparently, the final vizier of Thutmose III and one of the most moving texts from ancient Egypt is in that tomb, evidently the words of TIII to Rekhmire, telling him how important his role as vizier was to the people. But, after Rekhmire, no more viziers from that family, even though Rekhmire had plenty of sons. Just a coincidence? Who knows? But, in AE, eldest sons succeeded their fathers in their offices whenever possible.

  • Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 10:34
    This is not the most comprehensive overview of the astronomical ceiling of Senenmut but it does cite the date I have seen before, calculated according to the "southern sky"--1534 BC.... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingChris Bennett, Thu Feb 14 10:00
      Marianne -- Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut ... more
      • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 19:24
        CB: Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut in... more
        • Re: Senenmut's CeilingCHris, Fri Feb 15 19:50
          Basically, he gives a number of reasons why von Spaeth's claimed identification of Mars cannot be right. This is of course a different matter from whether Leitz' own dating is right. They can't both... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingGeorge R., Wed Feb 13 19:56
      Interesting, Marianne. Here's another Website on Senenmut's astronomical ceiling: http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v021.htm . I don't see the connection you're making between "year 7" and the... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 19:47
      Nope. 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus 16... more
      • Re: Senenmut's CeilingGeorge R., Thu Feb 14 10:39
        Hi, Marianne. You wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of... more
        • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 20:14
          GR: Thanks for that explanation. You begin with the hypothesis that "1534 [is the] Year of the birth of Hatshepsut." I still don't see why Senenmut would construct an astronomical ceiling in one of... more
      • All Roads Lead to 1570 BCMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 23:55
        In his "Chronicle of the Pharaohs", Peter Clayton has the 18th Dynasty starting like this: Ahmose I 1570-1546 24 yrs [Josephus gives 25 yrs, 4 mos.] Amenhotep I 1551-1524 27 years [Clayton doesn't... more
        • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 02:28
          We have the eruption of Thera in 1613 BCE, an inscription from the reign of Ahmose I seemingly recording its after effects, and Theran pumice in 18th dynasty strata. If the ceiling is a snapshot of... more
          • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCMarianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 09:05
            Not everyone is in agreement that the "Tempest Stela" of Ahmose I records the eruption of the Theran volcano. [See Allen] I used to argue for that, but I'm not so sure now. And you know where Bietak... more
            • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 09:53
              Good points. I guess if Senenmut had to consult records, as opposed to being an eyewitness of the "event" in 1534, the value of the astronomical ceiling is diminished. For the "snapshot" could be of... more
              • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCGeorge R., Thu Feb 14 10:52
                Hi Tory. You quote some interesting dates for Thutmose III. I'm using this reference for the "Annals of Thutmose III": "The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East," Prof. Charles F. Horne. New ... more
                • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 11:05
                  Hi George, My mistake. Not III-Shemu 9, but I-Shemu 4. This is from an inscription on the 7th pylon, Karnak. Regards, Tory
                  • Hatshepsut's Heb-sedMarianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 13:42
                    I wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus... more
                    • Astronomical DatingTerry E, Fri Feb 15 05:31
                      Dear Marianne, I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the... more
                      • Re: Astronomical DatingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 16:54
                        TE: I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the attraction of trying ... more
                        • Re: Astronomical DatingTerry E, Sat Feb 16 04:29
                          Dear Marianne, Thank you for your comments. First an apology: I did not intend my post to be a blast at you or your chronological views although I realise on re-reading it why you think I might have... more
                        • Astronomical DatingDavid Rice, Sat Feb 16 01:54
                          > Marianne (or others) -- do you have a convenient list of these at hand? -- David Rice
                          • Post Exhilic Sabbath YearsDavid Rice, Sun Feb 17 00:09
                            Hello, all -- a different subject just for a moment. There are different views about the dates on which Sabbath years were kept after the exile. Some conclude that a Sabbath commenced in 38 bc,... more
                            • Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sun Feb 17 10:27
                              Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
                              • Re: Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sat Feb 23 19:25
                                Hi David, Or -- if we take 573 BCE to be the year of a Yovel (Jubilee), the 25th year of the captivity as reported in Ezekiel 40:1, then the fall of 515 BCE would be the start of the first year of a... more
                            • Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sun Feb 17 10:25
                              Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
                    • Re: Hatshepsut's Heb-sedTory, Thu Feb 14 17:24
                      Yes, that is 'no moon' at dawn on II-Peret 30 in 1530 BCE (8-Mar Julian), and 'no moon' at dawn on I-Shemu 21 in 1532 BCE (28-May Julian). Regards, Tory
                      • V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 05:52
                        Another conjunction and date from the very interesting Von Spaeth: http://www.moses-egypt.net/book1/moses1-cap1_en.asp
                        • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesTory, Sun Feb 17 06:51
                          So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox rabbi ... more
                          • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 09:38
                            Tory: So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox ... more
                            • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 10:34
                              Oh--and BTW, in my own work, "The Exodus Chronicles: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" [2003] I also proposed Senenmut as a candidate for... more
                              • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of Moses — Marianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 22:29
                                • But, as usual--disagreement even in antiquityMarianne Luban, Tue Feb 19 06:14
                                  Naturally, wouldn't you know that some ancient authors, like Eusebius and Artapanus failed to believe that the Hebrews left Egypt 430 years after they had arrived--and that's one of the reasons... more
                                  • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Tue Feb 19 19:50
                                    Hello Marianne, Your comments are very interesting and informative. I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have... more
                                    • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Tue Feb 19 23:55
                                      Cullom: I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have seemed preferrable to have Moses and God best a famous king of... more
                                      • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Wed Feb 20 18:23
                                        Hello Marianne, Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? I suppose Thutmosis II was succeeded by a son-in-law since his... more
                                        • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityAnonymous, Fri Feb 22 02:02
                                          Cullom: Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? ML: Nope. And Ahmose was succeeded by a son. Cullom: I suppose... more
                                          • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 22 02:13
                                            Oops--pressed some wrong button. Hatshepsut, her Speos Artemidos inscription, says the "Aamu" were ensconced at Avaris "with vagabonds among them". Now, the Aamu were realistically depicted in a tomb ... more
                                            • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Sat Feb 23 08:51
                                              Hello Marianne, I should have said that Thutmosis I was succeeded by a "son-in-law" since his son Thutmosis II married his daughter Hatshepsut. The story of Abisha is remarkably similar to the story... more
                                              • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Sat Feb 23 15:55
                                                Cullom: In your earlier post you related that Egypt was ruled by Palmanothes AND Chenephres so Chenephres must have been more than an important official. ML: Why? He can have been a local lord.... more
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