Marianne Luban
But, as usual--disagreement even in antiquity
Tue Feb 19, 2008 06:14
66.53.209.139 (XFF: 81.106.124.212)

Naturally, wouldn't you know that some ancient authors, like Eusebius and Artapanus failed to believe that the Hebrews left Egypt 430 years after they had arrived--and that's one of the reasons Manetho's 18th Dynasty is rather screwed up in the various versions, with everybody trying to impose their own idea of the Exodus there. But who was to say who was wrong? There was surely more than one exodus, even though all can't have been led by Moses.

The other story goes like this: In the year 490, sixty years past 430, "the king of Egypt died and Chencheres reigned for 16 years. It was he who waged a contest with Moses with the help of Jannes and Jambres, the magicians."

The years 400-430 were supposedly ruled by Palmanothes [pA-n-imnHtp, the name of an Egyptian month,becoming
"Phamenoth"] and his son-in-law, "Chenephres", this last having married the daughter of the first, "Merris". Merris was the gal whoh adopted Moses and protected him from the jealousy of Chenephres, her husband. However, Merris died and Moses went to bury her with the help of Khanothis, who had been commissioned by Chenephres to kill Moses. But the reverse happened, even though Moses didn't flee Egypt just yet. In the intervening 60 years prior to Moses returning to Egypt, two other rulers, "Oros" and "Achencheres" appeared. Moses, as was said, fled in the reign of Oros and returned under Chencheres, the successor of Achencheres. Chencheres was the one who became king in 490. Some of these persons can be seen in Manetho's 18th Dynasty, transmitted by Syncellus from Eusebius.

Syncellus wrote: "Eusebius alone places the exodus of Israel under Moses in this reign, although no argument supports him, but all his predecessors held a contrary view, as he testifies."

But some did agree with Eusebius, such as Artapanus and the polymath Bar Hebraeus. So...assuming the year 430 is 1454, sixty years later is 1394. Well, it has to amount to Akhenaten or some immediate successors like Ankheperure or Smenkhkare! Pretty strange. And, yet, "Achencheres" is "Ankhe[t]kheperure" and so "Chencheres" must surely be Smenkhare. Whatever did these people do to get so much attention from the ancient historians? Well, Akhenaten was, as "Bocchoris" [pA xrw--"the criminal"] associated with a plague and those "polluted ones" he got rid of. Manetho calls him "Amenothes". And that was his original name, after all. According to Manetho, the revolt against the king started in Helipolis, one of the few places he still had temples and priests,[outside of the Aten temples] as Heliopolis was dedicated to the worship of Ra, of which Akhenaten, of course, approved. One of those priests was the leader and a man who changed his name to "Moses".

In other words, he probably considered himself another Moses for fomenting a rebellion against this family. But Eusebius insists this was the "real" Moses, come back to haunt the king. Anyway, chronologically, there must have been two significant occurences there in Egypt within 60 years or so. A very interesting dynasty--although God knows just who "Palmanothes and Chenephres" were supposed to have been.

  • Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 10:34
    This is not the most comprehensive overview of the astronomical ceiling of Senenmut but it does cite the date I have seen before, calculated according to the "southern sky"--1534 BC.... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingChris Bennett, Thu Feb 14 10:00
      Marianne -- Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut ... more
      • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 19:24
        CB: Before going too far out on a limb with von Spaeth's dating of the Senenmut ceiling you should read Christian Leitz' rebuttal "Remarks about the Appearance of Mars in the Tomb of Senenmut in... more
        • Re: Senenmut's CeilingCHris, Fri Feb 15 19:50
          Basically, he gives a number of reasons why von Spaeth's claimed identification of Mars cannot be right. This is of course a different matter from whether Leitz' own dating is right. They can't both... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingGeorge R., Wed Feb 13 19:56
      Interesting, Marianne. Here's another Website on Senenmut's astronomical ceiling: http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v021.htm . I don't see the connection you're making between "year 7" and the... more
    • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 19:47
      Nope. 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus 16... more
      • Re: Senenmut's CeilingGeorge R., Thu Feb 14 10:39
        Hi, Marianne. You wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of... more
        • Re: Senenmut's CeilingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 20:14
          GR: Thanks for that explanation. You begin with the hypothesis that "1534 [is the] Year of the birth of Hatshepsut." I still don't see why Senenmut would construct an astronomical ceiling in one of... more
      • All Roads Lead to 1570 BCMarianne Luban, Wed Feb 13 23:55
        In his "Chronicle of the Pharaohs", Peter Clayton has the 18th Dynasty starting like this: Ahmose I 1570-1546 24 yrs [Josephus gives 25 yrs, 4 mos.] Amenhotep I 1551-1524 27 years [Clayton doesn't... more
        • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 02:28
          We have the eruption of Thera in 1613 BCE, an inscription from the reign of Ahmose I seemingly recording its after effects, and Theran pumice in 18th dynasty strata. If the ceiling is a snapshot of... more
          • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCMarianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 09:05
            Not everyone is in agreement that the "Tempest Stela" of Ahmose I records the eruption of the Theran volcano. [See Allen] I used to argue for that, but I'm not so sure now. And you know where Bietak... more
            • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 09:53
              Good points. I guess if Senenmut had to consult records, as opposed to being an eyewitness of the "event" in 1534, the value of the astronomical ceiling is diminished. For the "snapshot" could be of... more
              • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCGeorge R., Thu Feb 14 10:52
                Hi Tory. You quote some interesting dates for Thutmose III. I'm using this reference for the "Annals of Thutmose III": "The Sacred Books and Early Literature of the East," Prof. Charles F. Horne. New ... more
                • Re: All Roads Lead to 1570 BCTory, Thu Feb 14 11:05
                  Hi George, My mistake. Not III-Shemu 9, but I-Shemu 4. This is from an inscription on the 7th pylon, Karnak. Regards, Tory
                  • Hatshepsut's Heb-sedMarianne Luban, Thu Feb 14 13:42
                    I wrote: 1534 BC is probably the year of the birth of Hatshepsut, herself, if that southern sky has been correctly interpreted. It can work out. Look: 1534 Year of the birth of Hatshepsut 1534 minus... more
                    • Astronomical DatingTerry E, Fri Feb 15 05:31
                      Dear Marianne, I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the... more
                      • Re: Astronomical DatingMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 15 16:54
                        TE: I freely confess my ignorance of things celestial as far as ancient chronology is concerned. But I also confess my great scepticism about this whole subject. I appreciate the attraction of trying ... more
                        • Re: Astronomical DatingTerry E, Sat Feb 16 04:29
                          Dear Marianne, Thank you for your comments. First an apology: I did not intend my post to be a blast at you or your chronological views although I realise on re-reading it why you think I might have... more
                        • Astronomical DatingDavid Rice, Sat Feb 16 01:54
                          > Marianne (or others) -- do you have a convenient list of these at hand? -- David Rice
                          • Post Exhilic Sabbath YearsDavid Rice, Sun Feb 17 00:09
                            Hello, all -- a different subject just for a moment. There are different views about the dates on which Sabbath years were kept after the exile. Some conclude that a Sabbath commenced in 38 bc,... more
                            • Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sun Feb 17 10:27
                              Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
                              • Re: Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sat Feb 23 19:25
                                Hi David, Or -- if we take 573 BCE to be the year of a Yovel (Jubilee), the 25th year of the captivity as reported in Ezekiel 40:1, then the fall of 515 BCE would be the start of the first year of a... more
                            • Post-Exilic Sabbath YearsTory, Sun Feb 17 10:25
                              Hi David, We need to know for certain the dates of Ezra's and Nehemiah's activity and which Persian kings they served. There is no explicit statement linking the public reading of the Torah by Ezra,... more
                    • Re: Hatshepsut's Heb-sedTory, Thu Feb 14 17:24
                      Yes, that is 'no moon' at dawn on II-Peret 30 in 1530 BCE (8-Mar Julian), and 'no moon' at dawn on I-Shemu 21 in 1532 BCE (28-May Julian). Regards, Tory
                      • V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 05:52
                        Another conjunction and date from the very interesting Von Spaeth: http://www.moses-egypt.net/book1/moses1-cap1_en.asp
                        • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesTory, Sun Feb 17 06:51
                          So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox rabbi ... more
                          • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 09:38
                            Tory: So Moshe, born according to Spaeth in 1534, was the historical Senenmut. It seems like that is where Spaeth is headed from what little of his website I have read? There is at least one orthodox ... more
                            • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 10:34
                              Oh--and BTW, in my own work, "The Exodus Chronicles: Beliefs, Legends & Rumors from Antiquity Regarding the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt" [2003] I also proposed Senenmut as a candidate for... more
                              • Re: V. Spaeth and the Birth of MosesMarianne Luban, Sun Feb 17 22:29
                                You know, this is pretty wild. That date for the birth of Moses works out every time. The Torah says that Moses didn't return to Egypt until he was 80 "because all who had sought his life were dead". ... more
                                • But, as usual--disagreement even in antiquity — Marianne Luban, Tue Feb 19 06:14
                                  • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Tue Feb 19 19:50
                                    Hello Marianne, Your comments are very interesting and informative. I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have... more
                                    • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Tue Feb 19 23:55
                                      Cullom: I think the church historians engaged in a bit of historical revision for political as well as religious reasons. It might have seemed preferrable to have Moses and God best a famous king of... more
                                      • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Wed Feb 20 18:23
                                        Hello Marianne, Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? I suppose Thutmosis II was succeeded by a son-in-law since his... more
                                        • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityAnonymous, Fri Feb 22 02:02
                                          Cullom: Do you know of any king besides Ahmose and Amenhotep I during the period in question who was succeeded by a son-in-law? ML: Nope. And Ahmose was succeeded by a son. Cullom: I suppose... more
                                          • Re: But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Fri Feb 22 02:13
                                            Oops--pressed some wrong button. Hatshepsut, her Speos Artemidos inscription, says the "Aamu" were ensconced at Avaris "with vagabonds among them". Now, the Aamu were realistically depicted in a tomb ... more
                                            • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityCullom, Sat Feb 23 08:51
                                              Hello Marianne, I should have said that Thutmosis I was succeeded by a "son-in-law" since his son Thutmosis II married his daughter Hatshepsut. The story of Abisha is remarkably similar to the story... more
                                              • But, as usual -- disagreement in antiquityMarianne Luban, Sat Feb 23 15:55
                                                Cullom: In your earlier post you related that Egypt was ruled by Palmanothes AND Chenephres so Chenephres must have been more than an important official. ML: Why? He can have been a local lord.... more
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