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Huinesoron
Further thoughts.
Thu Jul 19, 2012 9:38am
86.147.182.120

Can someone also please find a way to integrate it with the current text of Article One? And I would like to suggest some expansion of what 'actual chance' means - since "I already told you 'Shut up you stupid person', and you didn't, so leave the Board!" is something some people might consider an 'actual chance' - and if they're upset enough, other people might let them do so.

hS

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  • Constitution amendment proposition — SeaTurtle, Tue Jul 17 10:13pm
    People have been seriously hurt these past few days. In fact, we're seeing some brilliant people leave because of recent events. After Tray-Gnome, I've seen Herr Wozzeck also declare his intention to ... more
    • I'm glad to see this happening here. — Puck, Wed Jul 25 6:43pm
      And the suggestion below looks really good. It's great that the PPC has managed to get along for so long with people just generally being good people, but I guess we're large enough now that we need... more
    • I fully support this — Data Junkie, Fri Jul 20 4:46pm
      Considering recent events on the board, and the fact that even before this, we've lost people to bullying, we could stand to have a rule like this. Astral Void's proposal looks pretty good to me,... more
      • Seconded. — Wodan, Sun Jul 22 7:33pm
        Changes must be made to create a better environment for others to thrive and grow.
    • This is only happening NOW? — Gone Rampant, Wed Jul 18 9:33pm
      The PPC's been, what, hoping for goodwill? That should've been added the SECOND the PPC became public, not as an afterthought after so many people decide to quit. ... Sorry... It's just... how could... more
      • No, because you see... — Araeph, Wed Jul 18 10:04pm
        Back in the early days of the PPC, we had enough collective common sense and inherent respect for each other that such a rule was completely unnecessary. It was not a hope for goodwill; it was an... more
        • Oh. — Gone Rampant, Wed Jul 18 10:05pm
          What do you mean, by putting, "Arcadia" in speech marks? I thought she retired.
          • *sigh* Really? — Araeph, Wed Jul 18 10:11pm
            http://ppc.wikia.com/wiki/Acacia_Byrd This is a sad day for the Department of Technical Errors...
            • Me Idiot. Me Need Clarification. — Gone Rampant, Wed Jul 18 10:14pm
              Since the last thing I saw was them not doing Fifty Shades of bullshit.
              • That expectation of goodwill that I just talked about... — Araeph, Wed Jul 18 11:25pm
                ...includes being able to take criticism--especially of a spelling error--gracefully. Otherwise, the PPC runs the risk of being hypocritical for dishing out literary criticism but not being able to... more
                • *Sigh* — Gone Rampant, Wed Jul 18 11:41pm
                  OK, yeah, I made a load of mistakes. I just... wanted to help a little by solving the DeviantARt problem. I am sorry for being a plagarizing, snide, jackass, douchebag, hack, fool, idiot without a... more
              • Just stop, please. — Techno-Dann, Wed Jul 18 11:08pm
                You've completely missed what's happening, you've not read the Board, and that's twice in one evening that you've used language well outside the norm for the Board. Please, stop posting for the rest... more
                • Fine. — Gone Rampant, Wed Jul 18 11:10pm
                  I only stopped a flame war on DeviantART. I'll be in the IRC.
          • Agent mini detected! (nm) — SeaTurtle, Wed Jul 18 10:09pm
    • I agree with this wholeheartedly (nm) — Mister Shoebox, Wed Jul 18 6:13pm
    • Doctor Hello? — Lurker, Wed Jul 18 1:50pm
      What exactly happened with Doctor Hello? Also, the issue with Jacer... I agree with Tungsten_Monk on "diffusion of harmful opinions". Jacer was just mainly hurting others' feelings, not abusing... more
      • I am sorry, but I don't trust you. — JulyFlame, Wed Jul 18 1:58pm
        This is a serious issue, and you've chosen to hide your identity and not reveal who you are. We've have repeatedly had anonymous people come to Jacer's assistance and defense every time she has been... more
    • Wait wait wait. — Tungsten_Monk, Wed Jul 18 1:13pm
      "Diffusion of harmful opinions" is a dangerously open-ended idea. Putting language like that in the Constitution is pretty much giving Person X carte blanche to shut Person Y down by claiming Y's... more
      • PS: — Gone Rampant, Wed Jul 18 9:35pm
        If a person who's failed twice's say matters, I support any changes you make. Sorry for the outburst.
      • Worth noting — Data Junkie, Wed Jul 18 4:10pm
        Most of us are not adults, or just barely adults, and quite a few of us, myself included, almost certainly don't qualify as "mature".
      • Hang on. — Cassie, Wed Jul 18 1:52pm
        I'm not going to start challenging your move regarding the rules, because there are people who can and likely will put it way more eloquently than I can. But... you'd rather have a sizeable chunk of... more
      • We already set a dangerous precedent. — JulyFlame, Wed Jul 18 1:48pm
        We told Tray- through our actions and decisions- that we care less about his life and wellbeing and more about about Jacer's 'right' to say hateful things. I don't want the PPC's actions to end up... more
    • Agreed. — VixenMage, Wed Jul 18 12:05pm
      On the grounds of The Right to Swing a Fist, and how it ends exactly at someone else's skin. And I apologize for my role in escalating things. I don't want this to ever happen again. In addition,... more
    • I also support this — EileenAlphabet, Wed Jul 18 11:31am
      In fact, I agree with everything you have written, especially the comparison to DoctorHello. If he deserved to be run of the board for making one thoroughly disturbing joke, then I don't see how... more
    • corollary — StarShadow, Wed Jul 18 10:37am
      This seems like a reasonable Idea, and should help prevent this sort of thing from happening again. And I believe I speak for all of us when I say, this sucked. However, one thought I had when was... more
      • No. Rule 13. — JulyFlame, Wed Jul 18 11:24am
        "Serious discussion is ALSO welcome, nay, encouraged, here. Odd, ne?" I for one would not be happier if this turned into a hugbox with all serious discussion shut away and banned. That is against the ... more
    • Agreed. Can someone come up with some words? — Huinesoron, Wed Jul 18 10:26am
      Since I don't want to start with 'I, the h of S, have crafted this perfected Amendment; concord with it or suggest your pitiful alterations at your peril'... We're talking about altering the text of... more
      • Do these individuals and classes of people include... — JulyFlame, Wed Jul 18 11:48am
        Neo-nazis, racists, pick up artists/seduction artists, men's rights activists, and mimes? Because we should at least be allowed to discriminate against terrible people. Especially the mimes. In all... more
        • I'm not writing the wording. — Huinesoron, Wed Jul 18 2:00pm
          So it's up to someone else to decide whether to list everyone who can't be discriminated against, list everyone who can be discriminated against, or say something really clever that covers both. I am ... more
          • An attempt. — JulyFlame, Wed Jul 18 2:45pm
            A) Discrimination and persecution on the basis of sexism, racism, ableism, nationalism, homophobia, and transphobia are not going to be tolerated- this means we will not tolerate individual people or ... more
            • I saw no error, — ThArcanist, Thu Jul 19 5:04pm
              Though as has been shown, I tend to not spot errors correctly. One problem I did find was with the wording of A, or, specifically, what ISN'T the wording of A. I think there should be a little add-on ... more
            • Second attempt. — JulyFlame, Wed Jul 18 5:46pm
              A) Discrimination and persecution on the basis of sexism, racism, ableism, nationalism, homophobia, transphobia, or religion are not going to be tolerated- this means we will not tolerate individual... more
              • What Elcalion and AV said. — VixenMage, Thu Jul 19 5:15pm
                Let's not leave any loopholes for the rules-lawyers. I think we can be fairly confident that people trying to hide behind loopholes will be firmly dealt with, but those fights tend to be long,... more
              • Further thoughts. — Huinesoron, Thu Jul 19 9:38am
                • A suggestion... — Astral Void, Fri Jul 20 4:34am
                  I took a shot at revising and integrating article one. This isn't intended to be the final product, and all suggestions are more than welcome, but see what you think of it to start: A: Discrimination ... more
                  • Re: A suggestion... — WittyNit, Fri Jul 20 5:46pm
                    Your suggestion looks really good. Though, I don't think the board actually has moderators? I know the IRC has a few, and has guys called Designated Arbitrators, whose jobs are to help diffuse... more
                  • Sounds good to me. — TheMadHatteress, Fri Jul 20 4:35pm
                    I wish that these things could go without saying, but people have to know exactly what's expected of them. I hope this amendment is effective, because I would hate to see anything like what just... more
                  • On F. — VixenMage, Fri Jul 20 9:09am
                    I think we might need a revision along the lines of: F: If you find it impossible to get along with another member of the PPC, please take it up in private e-mail. However, the rules of civility and... more
                    • Re: On F. — Astral Void, Fri Jul 20 9:57am
                      Yeah, that sounds good. Thanks. :)
                  • Re: A suggestion... — the Irish Samurai, Fri Jul 20 7:32am
                    Your suggestion looks pretty good to me, and looks like it includes everything mentioned so far, but there is one point that I'm not sure about, and that's J. I'm not aware of any official anti-mime... more
                    • Actually... — Cassie, Fri Jul 20 8:38am
                      it is meant to be a joke, and one based on Discworld at that, but it is very clearly a joke entry meant to let people know we're not trying to be NO FUN ALLOWED. If someone really did try to use "but ... more
                    • Fair enough. — Astral Void, Fri Jul 20 7:57am
                      All right, we may have to put the anti-mime policy on hold. Or put it somewhere else.
              • Looks good — Antigone68104, Thu Jul 19 8:31am
                I would suggest going with Astral Void's wording of point A, because some people can be creative with loopholes and "of any kind" closes one before it's found.
              • Looks pretty good. — Astral Void, Wed Jul 18 7:47pm
                However, I did have an idea or two regarding some slight revisions. A: Discrimination and persecution of any kind, especially on the basis of sexism, racism, ableism, nationalism, homophobia,... more
                • I support Astral's wording — Elcalion, Thu Jul 19 11:55am
                  with just one change. D.75: "Learn the words". Seriously, though, I think A and C are now worded very tightly and should cover most if not all eventualities. C is an important clause - we need to... more
            • Hmm. — VixenMage, Wed Jul 18 5:32pm
              A is definitely clear, at least to me. C seems slightly ambiguous - 'offensive' tends to be a word that is a bit open-ended in definition, allowing for a lot of different people to have different... more
            • I approve. — SeaTurtle, Wed Jul 18 3:35pm
              Especially D. Also backing Lilac Lielac's suggestion of adding a "no discrimination/persecution on the basis of someone's religion or lack thereof" clause. We want all of our angles covered to... more
            • Sounds good to me. — Lilac Lielac, Wed Jul 18 2:57pm
              A might also use a mention of no discrimination/persecution on the basis of someone's religion or lack thereof; that one's also a button I've seen pressed, not here but elsewhere on the 'net.... more
    • Indeed. — Kaitlyn, Wed Jul 18 9:31am
      Safe-spacing is now pretty mainstream in cohesive communities. It's perfectly reasonable to ask people to leave homophobia, transphobia, sexism, racism and ablism at the door. We should always strive ... more
      • Re: Indeed. — Data Junkie, Wed Jul 18 2:47pm
        I suppose it is also reasonable to ask people to leave slut-shaming at the door, yes?
        • Re: Indeed. — Rosie Azrael , Wed Jul 18 5:12pm
          This is me, seconding the inclusion of slut-shaming in the "These are the things you just can't do here" pile.
          • A safe space indeed. — Laundry Pile, Wed Jul 18 6:03pm
            But it's a damn shame not everyone is the sort to agree with that, and follow it. That sort of stuff should not just be swept under the rug, and forgotten. 'Noble Cause' or not.
            • Okay, hold on. — Cassie, Wed Jul 18 6:21pm
              Nobody else mentioned this "slut-shaming" thing. I'm not going to pretend I know what this is all about, but it has the ring of making digs at someone that they're going to pick up on and feel bad... more
      • *hug* — JulyFlame, Wed Jul 18 12:03pm
        I don't think we have to worry about a vigilante culture developing here- after all, a sound chunk announced that they would rather leave than not be in accordance with the rules. Instead, we have... more
    • I agree with this amendment. — Rosie Azrael , Wed Jul 18 4:35am
      On all possible counts, I agree with this amendment, and am in favor of writing it into the Constitution of the PPC. That is all.
    • This seems like a start. — Cassie, Wed Jul 18 4:34am
      I'm thrown that things have been allowed to end up like this in the first place. As other people have said, the PPC has always been a safe space for me - a spot in the world where, no matter what... more
      • It should always be a safe place. — JulyFlame, Wed Jul 18 12:12pm
        And it should be somewhere that you know you have a voice too. :P Just because you're quiet, doesn't mean it doesn't carry weight to it. You've been a big part of the community for a long time,... more
        • It should be, yes. — Cassie, Wed Jul 18 12:57pm
          And hopefully, with so many people stepping up to support this amendment to the Constitution, it'll become a safe place again. Also, I've never felt like a big part of the community - just a teeny... more
          • Re: It should be, yes. — Cyba Zero, Thu Jul 19 6:34am
            You're not the only one who's fairly quiet, Cassie. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, it does mean that people like us tend to avoid the main firing line in situations akin to that which... more
            • Some enforcement queries — Cyba Zero, Fri Jul 20 8:25am
              I was wondering what could be done about if, say, somebody was banned from the Board but just came back under a different name? Also, if somebody was asked to leave/banned, how would they actually be ... more
              • Re: Some enforcement queries — Data Junkie, Sat Jul 21 8:30pm
                Well, there are some problems there, under our current board system. Banning from the board is done by banning an IP address, not a name, but I believe we can only have a certain number of IPs banned ... more
                • Hmm, tricky problem... — Cyba Zero, Sun Jul 22 7:27am
                  ...just because I agree with updating the Constitution, but the PPC Posting Board also needs a way to enforce it. Unfortunately not all people, when politely asked to leave, will necessarily leave,... more
                  • Not really. — VixenMage, Mon Jul 23 4:22pm
                    ...somebody could come in, flame under an existing member's name and get an innocent Boarder banned. First off, the IP addresses are visible. It would be very, very easy** to check the IP on the... more
                    • Good to know — Cyba Zero, Tue Jul 24 2:38pm
                      Ah, then I guess I'm just being paranoid. Good to know it's covered. Thanks for putting my worries to rest.
    • Something needs to be done, and I think this is it. — Jopalopa, Wed Jul 18 4:21am
      This entire situation has really hit home for me. I've tried to avoid it, but I can't anymore. It's a problem that, I think, is silently plaguing the entire Internet - especially communities like the ... more
    • Re: Constitution amendment proposition — desdendelle, Wed Jul 18 1:56am
      In my opinion, the bottom line is that if people are hurt, whoever's been saying the hurtful things should shut up, and fast. If they don't shut up of their volition, they should be silenced. Because ... more
    • Third — Miah, Tue Jul 17 11:35pm
      The PPC has been for a long time (a very long time for some members) a place that maintained safety simply because we could trust our fellow members to not fail to grow and learn. It is a very sad... more
    • I agree... — AnnaBee, Tue Jul 17 11:12pm
      And I apologize for my part in the situation. It won't happen again.
    • Re: The Constitution — doctorlit, Tue Jul 17 11:10pm
      Yes, we should practice zero tolerance against hate and bullying. Yes, this should be reflected in the Constitution. But! Zero tolerance should have been an automatic response to this situation.... more
      • No offense taken, sir. — SeaTurtle, Wed Jul 18 1:13am
        It just seemed that everyone was falling back onto the Constitution to defend themselves. I am in complete agreement with you. I'm just so sad that it needed people to quit so that we realize that we ... more
    • Now that you spell it out... — Lilac Lielac, Tue Jul 17 10:50pm
      I propose that we include a subsection to the first rule in our Constitution: that we will not tolerate any sort of discrimination, persecution, or diffusion of harmful opinions. I'm kind of... more
      • Yeah — Rilwen Shadowflame, Wed Jul 18 4:45am
        Most places these days do have a 'no discrimination' pointer, of some wording or other, in their document of social rules for their community. It's rare not to... and could stand to be rarer.
    • I agree. — Ivan the Not-so-Terrible, Tue Jul 17 10:49pm
      Sometimes, only the harsh policy works. I agree with this.
    • I also support the propostion. (nm) — Ozzielot, Tue Jul 17 10:48pm
    • Seconded (nm) — ShatteredSanity, Tue Jul 17 10:42pm
    • for what it matters — melancholicPoet, Tue Jul 17 10:32pm
      I support this proposition.
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