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Neshomeh
Re: In response.
Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:50pm
98.206.35.128

The reason I'm not counting Artell's response to my first question is that my first question didn't correctly convey my meaning. I know, and knew then, that I don't need anyone's permission to speak. What I actually wanted to know, as I explained in my second question, was whether it would be worth the effort. With all due respect to Maslab, he's just one person, and he wasn't one of the people who led the charge, so to speak. I wasn't willing to open myself to further accusations and censure from you, Artell, Cassie, Rilwen, HerrWozzeck, etc., on the assumption that Maslab was speaking for anyone but Maslab. The fact that you didn't feel the need to assure me I wasn't beyond redemption in your eyes is pretty discouraging, and that goes for everyone who spoke up after you, too.

I don't understand your insistence that communicating to Tray privately would have been better for Tray. (At least, I think that's what you mean.) It might have prevented the subsequent drama, at least the parts that happened on the Board, but in hindsight I don't think he would have taken it any better at the time.

As for waiting to say something until later, public or private, I would like to know when you think would have been an appropriate time. How long is long enough to wait without letting the incident in question fade too much from relevance? How can I know when the time is right, and that I won't just be rebuked for not letting old threads lie?

Also, I've stated that part of my reason for posting was that I didn't want to see non-Jacer people reduced to insults, condemnation, and other behaviors we claim not to want on the Board. Can you please tell me how you think I could have gotten across the message of "hey guys, let's not turn this thread into a flamefest" by waiting until later to say something, or by speaking to one or two people in private?

Finally, has anything I've said made any kind of positive impact at all? I can't read your mind, so please tell me. If the answer is "no," I can go find something else to do that won't make me frustrated, sad, and angry for no purpose.

~Neshomeh

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  • Constitutional Amendment, Part DeuxJulyFlame, Thu Jul 26 4:47pm
    The original thread is beginning to sink with all these new ones popping up, and that's caused a lack of commenting on it and new additions and/or changes, so please forgive me, SeaTurtle, for... more
    • Did someone say that the rule "Don't tell other people their opinions are wrong" is a shield for bullies? I don't think it is. Can't you tell a bully to not bully without addressing the rightness of... more
      • Have you read through the multiple discussion threads we've had on this? You are essentially advocating a hands-off approach where we let bigots off the hook for being bigots. Intolerance needs to be ... more
        • Yes, I read through the discussion threads, and I disagree with some of it. I was just checking to see if the new Constitution was going to go through. No, I thought we would just tell everyone the... more
          • H'm.VixenMage, Wed Aug 1 11:39am
            I don't agree with everything Artell's said on this thread, or even everything that's been said on this thread (and others) in general, so I'm only speaking for myself, here. Neshomeh and Phobos, I... more
            • That way it's the declaration of opinion that's being targeted and stopped, because its potential negative effect on others--not the person. This is good.
              • A Caveat.VixenMage, Wed Aug 1 9:41pm
                I apologize for not realizing this. I posted without the usual amount of proofreading, due to various amounts of stress and time-lacking. I should add - two things, actually. First: We're all... more
          • "I can easily see this turning into something where the majority can take the majority opinion and whack the minority over the head with it until it flees or falls unconscious or begs for mercy,... more
    • I see nothing wrong with it.Wikimaster, Sat Jul 28 5:05pm
      Yeah, it seems good.
    • I give my fullest support.ThatOne, Sat Jul 28 8:39am
      I realize the wording is still being tweaked a bit but the gist of it is still there. The PPC should be a fun place, not a place of arguments and discrimination. Also, I like the Discworld reference.
    • I approve the changes too, definitely. (nm)HimochiIsAwesome, Sat Jul 28 7:19am
    • We need to say somethingPhobos and Neshomeh, Fri Jul 27 11:44pm
      First off, we would like to say that we approve of the proposed amendments. We think that the changes are needed. However, that is not what we want to talk about right now. We are concerned about... more
      • I need to say somethingMaslab, Sun Jul 29 12:20am
        Please allow me to explain, from my point of view, why I see the criticisms of the criticisms as valid. 1) Refers to this post, I believe. While open-ended language can indeed be an issue, that's not ... more
        • I'm sorry I didn't make myself clear.Tungsten_Monk, Tue Jul 31 1:37am
          Here, let me try again. First, my objection was to a specific wording in the amendment--which is no longer present, which I'm glad to see. I certainly wasn't trying to say "yay, Jacer is okay and... more
          • Concerning the wording...SeaTurtle, Tue Jul 31 1:50pm
            ...looking back at it, the initial statement could have been a lot better formulated. It was a crude idea, but I felt that it was important to get something in the air as fast as possible so that we... more
        • Please stop this.Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 2:48pm
          With statements like this ( A bigot was defended by people in this community ) you and other have engaged in repeated, unjustified and untrue personal attacks on myself and other members of this... more
          • Might as well post here as any other place.AnnaBee, Wed Aug 1 3:39pm
            ...I don't really know what to say and I'm terrified I'm going to smeg up, but here goes nothing. I'm sorry. I really, really am. I was ridiculous and horrible and I defended a bigot. More or less... more
          • Okay.JulyFlame, Sun Jul 29 4:13pm
            People did defend Jacer. I rather doubt they all-if any- actually agree with Jacer's opinions, but nevertheless, they did defend her to some extent or another. Neshomeh defended Jacer against Tray... more
            • Apology + explanation.Neshomeh, Sun Jul 29 8:19pm
              Let me start off by saying that I did, in fact, express my regrets about what happened in that thread, in this post . I'm not at all happy about any of it, particularly not that I inadvertently... more
              • On this entire conflict.VixenMage, Sun Jul 29 11:57pm
                People seem to be hitting their breaking points, and this is probably in large part because of the fact that we have all, for a very long time now, cared about and trusted each other. It's always... more
                • All we can do is keep trying.Huinesoron, Mon Jul 30 12:12am
                  Friends disagree, sometimes vehemently, often through misunderstanding. As Tolkien would put it - we can't help it; this is Arda Marred, and the Dischords are built into us. But (to continue my... more
              • In response. JulyFlame, Sun Jul 29 8:54pm
                You asked if you could defend yourself. Artell said you didn't need his permission. Artell even said that he knew that your post wasn't intended to incite the response it did. When you asked if you... more
                • Re: In response. — Neshomeh, Sun Jul 29 10:50pm
                  • May I intercede?Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 11:06pm
                    (Please note: this was written immediately before I saw your post, but I don't think you have invalidated anything I said. Urrr, actually I may need an endnote...) This is how I see the above few... more
                    • Proper response.Neshomeh, Mon Jul 30 4:11pm
                      Mainly, the answer to your question: In the most general of terms , I do not believe being in an emotional state while posting is a free pass to not being immediately accountable for what you say. In ... more
                      • Re: Proper response.Artell, Tue Jul 31 8:55am
                        "Anyway, the point of the story is that I get what a trigger is, and I get that they're real. I am skeptical of them when they start getting waved around like magic amulets that give the wielder the... more
                        • So...Neshomeh, Tue Jul 31 11:01am
                          Are you, or are you not, willing to ever forgive me for anything you think I've done wrong? If I try to answer you, is there any possibility it's going to do me any good, or is it just going to lead... more
                          • Briefest reply for my own part.JulyFlame, Tue Jul 31 3:32pm
                            I personally do not hate you nor likely ever will. I disagree with you on the matter of how you handled it and your rationale for it, but that does not mean I will not forgive you ever or that I have ... more
                          • Re: So...Artell, Tue Jul 31 2:42pm
                            All that I can forgive, on my part, I forgive. I apologize since I probably didn't make that clear enough. I'm not sure what you mean by good faith. But I know and happily say that you are not a bad... more
                            • Thank you. I'm glad we can work on this.Neshomeh, Tue Jul 31 4:28pm
                              I think the biggest difference between us at the time was how we understood (the former) Rule 1 in the Constitution. I think I explained my end, but if I didn't say this, I'll say now that I never... more
                              • Re: Thank you. I'm glad we can work on this.Artell, Tue Jul 31 5:42pm
                                "When I say I would like to be taken in good faith, I mean that I would like to be able to post what I think without having implications and impressions read in where I have taken pains not to put... more
                      • Re: Proper response.Data Junkie, Tue Jul 31 6:12am
                        For whatever it's worth, I still have tremendous amounts of respect for you. I always read your posts not as a dismissal of Tray and Lielac or as a defense of Jacer, but as you asking people to step... more
                        • Thank you.Neshomeh, Tue Jul 31 1:05pm
                          If I may ask you something, though, I'm (still) wondering what you meant by telling Tungsten Monk that you don't qualify as mature. To me, it doesn't immediately align with you telling me that you do ... more
                          • Well...Data Junkie, Tue Jul 31 10:50pm
                            I do usually try to help diffuse arguments and generally be a reasonable person, as of late at least, but it is not a consistent thing. There are times when I feel that's it's not worth it, or that a ... more
                      • I'm sorry.VixenMage, Mon Jul 30 10:55pm
                        Neshomeh, you've poured your heart and soul into this community for as long as I can remember. You smooth things over, level things out, keep people and matters reasonable, and you're always... more
                      • From where I'm sitting...Techno-Dann, Mon Jul 30 10:43pm
                        You've redeemed yourself - beyond redeemed yourself - in my eyes. Beyond just that, you've gone through emotional hell these last few weeks. You've been attacked by the community, you've done some... more
                        • Thank you for understanding.Neshomeh, Tue Jul 31 12:09pm
                          Part of what's been so difficult is the feeling that I've been unable to communicate—an ability I am usually respected for and take pride in—so it's a big relief just to see that I'm... more
                        • Re: From where I'm sitting...Artell, Tue Jul 31 4:08am
                          "Beyond just that, you've gone through emotional hell these last few weeks. You've been attacked by the community, you've done some hugely deep introspection, you've bared your heart to the... more
                      • Making something clearMaslab, Mon Jul 30 10:34pm
                        As far as I'm concerned, the only person that is in my bad graves in all of this is Jacer. The only thing I really see bad going on with anyone is simply a mistake in downplaying what happened. Not... more
                        • I understand.Neshomeh, Tue Jul 31 11:22am
                          Our basic philosophies are different in that mine doesn't include your third rule, but I understand it. And yeah, I didn't fully appreciate that Tray was feeling cornered right then. I didn't mean to ... more
                      • *hugs for Neshomeh*Cassie, Mon Jul 30 6:26pm
                        It's all been one massive, awful mix-up. But just because things have exploded and you happened to wind up in the centre of it doesn't mean you're not forgiven. I'd hate to think that we can't... more
                        • *hugs*Neshomeh, Tue Jul 31 11:04am
                          Thank you. I appreciate the hug booth and fun thread, by the way. Even though I'm not up for active participation right now, they do make me smile. {= ) ~Neshomeh
                          • *huggles*Cassie, Tue Jul 31 12:04pm
                            You're welcome, and I'm glad you're amused my my frantic antics. :P
                    • I appreciate it.Neshomeh, Sun Jul 29 11:52pm
                      I think you're putting my side more clearly than I did. At least, it all rings true for me. And, I will be back with a proper response tomorrow, because my brain is about out of juice for right now... more
                      • Phew. Glad I succeeded at that.Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 11:57pm
                        I will mention now that I don't know when and how often I'll be around after tonight; this is the last night before my holiday, which means it's the last night I've been on American time. So I... more
                    • Thank you.JulyFlame, Sun Jul 29 11:34pm
                      Huinesoron: In a less volatile situation, yes, an immediate rebuke would be appropriate. Neshomeh: Echoing hS, please do not leave due to this. This situation should not be the cause of you departing.
                      • And thank you.Huinesoron, Mon Jul 30 12:01am
                        It's good to know that I haven't misjudged you - I had assumed that you would answer that way, but all the words flying around about 'not the issue at hand' - from many people, not just you - led me... more
              • Thank you for posting.Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 8:35pm
                Obviously I'm in no position to say whether your explanology clears things up - I'll leave that to Maslab, July, or anyone else who wishes to comment - but thank you very much for being willing to... more
            • Thank you.Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 4:28pm
              A clarification of opinion: I do not consider 'defending Jacer' to be synonymous with 'stating that a one-time offender should be given another chance', nor with 'stating that people's reactions can... more
              • You rang?Tungsten_Monk, Sun Jul 29 6:30pm
                bansheebride@yahoo.com. Knock yourself out, big guy.
              • Something I feel I should noteMaslab, Sun Jul 29 6:24pm
                I haven't had all too much interaction with you, but from what I've seen you seem to be a pretty cool guy. It seems to me that any defense of Jacer in this whole thing was made from a position of... more
                • Thank you.Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 6:52pm
                  If my clarification above has not yet cleared up your concerns that I ever defended Jacer - as opposed to stating that a single year-old offense should not be grounds for banishment (which I still... more
                  • ApologiesMaslab, Sun Jul 29 7:04pm
                    I didn't intend it that way. I really am no longer concerned about anyone doing so, or at least I hope no one still does.
                    • Thank you.Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 7:07pm
                      And sorry if I was a bit short just then. The whole thing's been weighing on my mind since it happened, and I'm rather tense. (There have been more apologies and thankses in this thread than in I... more
                      • No problemMaslab, Sun Jul 29 10:08pm
                        It seems like this whole issue has a lot of people on an understandably short fuse, and that's why I'm not actually keen on going after specific people. (I suppose that depends on your view of... more
              • Postscript.JulyFlame, Sun Jul 29 4:47pm
                To make this clear: I have never had any intention of hounding you at all, so if I've been part of the source of that, I apologize immensely and would like to know how I was part of it. Believe me,... more
                • Posted script.Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 5:04pm
                  I'm naturally reluctant to go over the records to check, but I do not feel that you in particular have been hounding me. You have engaged in debate with me over this amendment, but that's fine -... more
              • *scampers over and sets up a hugging booth*Cassie, Sun Jul 29 4:40pm
                I'm not going to go into why all this current arguing and debate and other words used to describe exchanges of non-identical opinion is a bad thing, because I'm pretty upset over it all too. I'm... more
                • Hugs all around!Aeidhryn, Tue Jul 31 11:47pm
                  If it matter to you, I've got lots.
                • Thank you.Huinesoron, Sun Jul 29 5:07pm
                  It feels good to know there are people like you in the PPC - people who are able to do this. ... no, but seriously, how ? I mean, is there like an operation they do that makes you able to not start... more
                  • I'm glad you like it. ^_^Cassie, Sun Jul 29 5:41pm
                    It's nice to know that somehow my ability to just want to make everything better is appreciated. :P I'm not entirely sure how I wound up like this, to be perfectly honest - I have a right temper when ... more
        • To be fair...VixenMage, Sun Jul 29 12:59pm
          I think what Neshomeh and Phobos are talking about this bit: 4) Because of the way you phrased the above concern, I did assume that your issue with the new rule was that homophobia was not going to... more
        • I agree so much with point 3EileenAlphabet, Sun Jul 29 6:45am
          Anti equal-marriage legislation have only one purpose: To ruin the lives of living, breathing human beings as punishment for how they were born. If anyone don't know the story, they can go google... more
        • Oh, hello.Kaitlyn, Sun Jul 29 3:28am
          I guess I need to clarify that my comments there were not intended to defend Jacer, who clearly was a chronic offender, but were only a response to the proposal that we institute a zero-tolerance... more
          • HiMaslab, Sun Jul 29 4:15am
            As I stated in my above post: I am aware that you're not trying to defend Jacer, and these would be legitimate concerns given proper context. However, within the context that this subject is being... more
            • But once we've made an amendment . . .Kaitlyn, Sun Jul 29 4:45am
              . . . it does apply to everything going forward. If this were a totally isolated and unique situation, we wouldn't need to change the Constitution to deal with it -- or rather, we could just add in a ... more
              • Fair enoughMaslab, Sun Jul 29 4:56am
                Again, not an illegitimate point. I think that's why there tends to be a difference between stating one's opinion and hate speech. One is deserving of an immediate smackdown, and the other isn't.... more
                • I do agree.Kaitlyn, Sun Jul 29 5:02am
                  And hopefully this actually will be a totally isolated and unique incident, and we'll never have to think about invoking the amendment ever again. You never know your luck, right? -- Kaitlyn, hopeful ... more
      • Thank you for being brave enough to say this. (nm)Huinesoron, Sat Jul 28 7:44pm
      • ThanksStarShadow, Sat Jul 28 8:12am
        thank you, Phobos and Neshomeh.
    • I agree to the fullest. (nm)TheMadHatteress, Fri Jul 27 6:11pm
    • Read and approved.SeaTurtle, Fri Jul 27 5:43pm
      No worries about putting this back up top, ma'am. This issue needs to be resolved ASAP. I approve of the wording for the amendment but I'd just like to stress one point. One very, very important... more
      • It is very important.Huinesoron, Fri Jul 27 7:29pm
        And I absolutely agree that both 'I can do it because the Constitution' and 'You can't do that because the Constitution' can be dangerous and stupid statements. The problem recently seems to have... more
        • *that's recently from a 9-year view.Huinesoron, Fri Jul 27 7:33pm
          Not recently as in the last few days/weeks. Obviously even the recent incident has roots going back more than a year. hS
    • AgreedDropship8, Fri Jul 27 2:03pm
      I agreed with this, but what with mimes? I have never heard of that expression before now.
      • MimesPonystar17, Fri Jul 27 2:07pm
        It's a Discworld reference.
        • ThanksDropship8, Fri Jul 27 2:14pm
          Thank you!
    • I, too, agree (nm)desdendelle, Fri Jul 27 11:35am
    • I agree with this. (nm)ShatteredSanity, Fri Jul 27 10:32am
    • I completely agree (nm)Shellfur, Fri Jul 27 9:19am
      • Ooh, is it being discussed on the IRC?Huinesoron, Fri Jul 27 12:00am
        I'd love to have someone update those of us who don't visit on what changes (if any) are being suggested. hS
        • Everything gets discussed on the IRC!VixenMage, Fri Jul 27 1:21am
          Pretty much any topic of import-or-unimport that comes up on the 'Board eventually makes its way to the chat as well. Mainly the discussion was just back and forth on what's already been brought up,... more
    • Excellent.MAXinsanity (409), Thu Jul 26 10:33pm
      I could not agree more.
    • ThoughtsStarShadow, Thu Jul 26 6:33pm
      Seems good, but (takes deep breath) I am not sure if the sections of part one clear with Article 12. The problem I see is that anyone who doesn’t support gay rights, and all their opinion on said... more
      • Additionally...JulyFlame, Thu Jul 26 7:32pm
        I am somewhat unsure as to why you are now leaping to use Rule 12 as a defense and in opposition to these changes, when earlier you wanted us to outright ban starting threads on 'potentially... more
        • On changing opinions.Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 7:36pm
          People can do that. StarShadow, in fact, did exactly what this amendment asks - gave an opinion, was told why it was wrong, and changed it. Then she(?) found an issue relating to her new opinion, and ... more
          • ThanksStarShadow, Thu Jul 26 8:49pm
            I'm "He" BTW
            • I should probably start assuming that.Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 8:56pm
              Back when I joined, the PPC was made up of LotR fanwriters, who - unlike the rest of the Internet - were almost exclusively female. The exceptions could literally be counted on the fingers of one... more
          • Except the opinion wasn't changed.JulyFlame, Thu Jul 26 7:44pm
            They went from wanting to ban 'potentially controversial topics' because 'I say this because many people feel strongly with regards to these issues, and starting massive one-sided discussions with... more
            • That was not my understanding of this thread.Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 7:49pm
              As I understood it, the fear is that any opinion someone doesn't agree with which in any way touches on a sensitive topic will be immediately labelled as hateful, regardless of the actual opinion and ... more
              • Re: That was not my understanding of this thread.StarShadow, Thu Jul 26 9:05pm
                Thanks, that is exactly what I am saying. My concern being the potential subjective nature of what can be considered a "hateful" comment would prevent intelligent and serious discourse on a range of... more
              • A clarification/alteration.Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 8:28pm
                I actually think that the amendment - either as stands or with the minor tweaks suggested elsewhere - will cover this just fine. I believe that the PPC Boarders have enough common sense not to... more
      • Four views.Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 7:07pm
        Specifically views on gay marriage, but they can be extrapolated to other debates. 1/ Huinesoron's actual belief: As a Latter-day Saint, I believe that people will be married for eternity for the... more
      • Incorrect, on multiple levels.JulyFlame, Thu Jul 26 7:00pm
        To start with, not supporting gay rights does not make you instantly homophobic. When your reasons for not supporting gay rights or LGBT is because they are terrible, sinful and disgusting people,... more
      • So...VixenMage, Thu Jul 26 7:00pm
        Yes. It is true that this amendment would result in basically prohibiting people from talking about how they do not believe in the civil rights of LGBTQ people. I'm not sure how that's a problem.
        • But they DO have a right to an opinion (nm)StarShadow, Thu Jul 26 7:10pm
          • True.VixenMage, Fri Jul 27 1:48am
            I may have over-simplified things, and I'll try and clarify them here. 1) Yes, of course the opinions of individuals' are solely their own, to be held and established and changed or not-changed at... more
            • Sideslipped explanation.Huinesoron, Fri Jul 27 2:24am
              Your #3 (wow, it feels good to have a # key again - the computer at work has it assigned to / instead... and / is also assigned /. No #!) is why I've been so worried about what a chance consists of.... more
            • Well said. Very well said indeed. (nm)Puck, Fri Jul 27 1:57am
      • Request.Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 6:46pm
        Since I'm currently unable to access the Constitution in either version (computer restrictions), can someone copy in Article 12 so I know what we're talking about? hS
    • I am totally down with this.Cassie, Thu Jul 26 6:23pm
      People have suggested a few tweaks to the wording, which are good tweaks, but overall I think the amendment is a good one. Let us accept it as part of Da Rules.
    • Yes. A thousand times, yes.Ponystar17, Thu Jul 26 5:36pm
      I wholeheartedly agree with 1 through 4 - just having seen some of the flame threads - and the arguments about discrimination and second chances - makes me see this as closing many loopholes and... more
    • Re: Constitutional Amendment, Part DeuxAstral Void, Thu Jul 26 5:13pm
      I like this version, but I have a slight change in mind: 2. Do not flame. There is a distinct difference between 'I don't agree with your opinion and I think that your theory is factually wrong' and... more
      • I concur with this.Huinesoron, Fri Jul 27 7:25pm
        Hopefully someone can get a finalised/integrated version up soon, everyone can agree, and I can put it into the Constitution. hS
    • Minor suggested tweaks.Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 5:11pm
      Based on either things that have vanished from the original (I'm assuming this is meant to replace articles 1-6 in their entirety, and leave everything else as it stands), or on inter-linking... or... more
      • Okay apologies for super delayed response. JulyFlame, Mon Aug 13 2:21pm
        Between vacation, and then the Neshomeh stuff up there, and then just general life. 1. Discrimination and persecution of any kind will not be tolerated, especially on the basis of sexism, racism,... more
        • Re: Okay apologies for super delayed response. Astral Void, Tue Aug 14 9:04am
          A new thread for this might be a good idea... this one's rather long, to say the least. I like this one, but may I suggest a slight alteration? 2. Do not flame. There is a distinct difference between ... more
          • Agree with this.Huinesoron, Tue Aug 14 4:11pm
            I don't think we need a new thread, since I think this constitutes (hehe see what I did there?) a final form... but it's not my thread, so it's up to you's lot. hS
            • Let's just go with this, then? JulyFlame, Tue Aug 14 6:41pm
              I don't think that the 'no bigoted jokes' thing needs to be its own thing, since it is firmly within the realm of that other rule, but, eh.
              • And also Articles 1, 4, 6, 8...Huinesoron, Wed Aug 15 12:37am
                ... there's a lot of repetition in there, July. I assumed you felt it necessary. Well, it's enacted now. Both copies updated; if you spot any errors or inconsistancies, please edit them (the... more
        • I approve of this amendment (nm)Tomash, Mon Aug 13 5:56pm
        • I continue to approve. (nm)Lilac Lielac, Mon Aug 13 5:52pm
        • Also, changing all mentions of 'rule' to 'article' would be an idea too.
      • Oh, and...Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 5:39pm
        ... it saddens me that the PPC Board no longer believes the opening clause of (current) Article 3: Part of the wonder of the PPC is the ability of its members to engage in mature debate without... more
        • Yes, well. JulyFlame, Thu Jul 26 6:11pm
          It's difficult to believe something when there is undisputed proof from multiple occasions and a variety of people that it's not existed for quite some time outside of only a few people. July, who... more
          • Ooh, a stick?Huinesoron, Thu Jul 26 6:44pm
            Is it a good stick? Is it a walking stick? Is it... a sticky stick? (I do not comprehend the stick) hS
    • I vote for keeping this version (nm)Miah, Thu Jul 26 4:50pm
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