"Texas, by God"
and the
TWIN TERRITORIES
Gary Roberts
What price judgment?
Mon Jul 21, 2008 08:32
70.145.44.195

Joyce, you're making a whole lot of assumptions and judgments here that are based upon conclusions that frankly were not possible for most people on the ground at the time. I certainly am not prepared to say that he was "not a true servant of God," or that his sincerity and opinions must be questioned any more than any other eyewitness. Who has said that his position as a clergyman entitles him to more weight as an observer? He was young, privileged, educated, and in a new environment. He gravitated toward those people who welcomed him and helped him to build a church (and frankly toward people with whom he had more in common in terms of education and privilege). That does not make him either a fraud or a hypocrit. In fact, I'd say that makes him very normal as a human being and as a clergyman. All I know for sure is that he lived a dedicated life of service and brought a hard-nosed sense of responsibility to a distinguished career teaching young men to become leaders. He wasn't Mother Theresa, but he was a person who made a difference.

I would suggest that you are questioning his spirituality and his sincerity because what he thought and said are inconvenient and messy for your point of view. You line up your witnesses and rate them according to where they stand on the position you've already taken. You have to look for reasons to find fault with Peabody. I see plenty of evidence in his diary that he was uncomfortable with what was going on, that he was conflicted and troubled by it. People are rarely insincere in their diaries. They may be misinformed or emotional, but that merely reveals their humanity.

I don't understand your point "that Peabody's viewpoint was likely more built on the views of the company he kept rather than first hand knowledge and experience." If you mean that he was not in the saloon when Morgan was killed or that he wasn't in on the vendetta ride, then of course you're right, but he WAS in Tombstone and he did have the pulse of the community with which he worked. Virtually all of the people in Tombstone other than the Earps themselves and the Clantons and their friends had viewpoints "built on the views of the company [they] kept." There is a difference between eyewitness testimony and first hand knowledge. What contemporary sources meet your criteria for reliability? What is your standard?

Peabody arrived in Tombstone in January 1882. He takes a room in the Grand Hotel. He sees the men in the street. He hears the rumors. He listens to the people he meets. Judge Stilwell gives him a history of what has happened--the cowboy problem, the street fight, and the assassination attempt on the life of Virgil Earp. He hangs out with people who support the former marshal and his brothers. He's there in Tombstone when Morgan is assassinated. He listens to his friends talk about what is going on. He's troubled by the violence. He's troubled by reports of what the Earps do. He believes they should leave Arizona. What in that is hard to understand? It seems to me that Peabody's opinions were formed in the self-same way that everybody else's opinions are formed.

"True justice?" Who was the arbiter of true justice in Tombstone? The backshooters who gunned down Virgil Earp in the dead of night from hiding? The murderers who killed Morgan Earp and tried to kill Wyatt through the back-door windows once more in the dead of night? Ike Clanton, whose "code" you "understand?" I don't get it. Reverend Peabody knew about those "brave" acts on the part of the cowboys. He also was there when Breakenridge's posse shot it out with Grounds and Hunt. He was there at the time of the Peel murder. He knew the mood of the town. He felt the tension in the street.

I submit that these things constituted an ample and reasonable basis for Peabody to conside "cowboy criminality" the greater threat. And while Peabody did not approve of the Earps' course and even chided his friends for contributing to their cause, given what had happened, he understood both their motivation and the reasons the Earps were supported by others.

You're willing to excuse Ike for not accepting Wyatt's offer to end the troubles, ignore the effort that Wyatt made to resign as deputy U. S. marshal, and the plain fact that Behan's relationship with the cowboys was a contemporary issue. Given the history of what had happened in Tombstone since the street fight, what truly fair-minded peace officer would have picked John Ringo and Phin Clanton as possemen? Is that any more responsible than choosing Sherm McMaster and Texas Jack as possemen? If, at this point, Earp's purposes were mainly personal, as I'm inclined to believe, then shouldn't Behan have maintained a higher standard to show that his purposes weren't?

The criticism of Behan rested upon more than "some petty thing." Why did Sylvester Comstock have his name removed from Behan's bond as sheriff? Why was he not reelected as Sheriff? Peabody came to share the contempt that the men he knew felt for Behan. Behan might have been the hero in the Tombstone story if he had taken the high ground. He didn't. He became a partisan, plain and simple. Nothing more. He chose to take a side rather than to take a stand.

But I digress. The criticisms you make of Peabody you can make of any contemporary witness. Their opinions were all the products of their associations, relationships, attitudes, and experiences. They were no different than us. Certainly the fact that Peabody was a latecomer to Tombstone, certainly the fact that he associated with bankers and businessmen and Republicans, certainly the fact that he was an Easterner somewhat infatuated with the idea of the "West," and certainly his own sense of right and wrong, his version of "muscular Christianity" shaped how he responded to Tombstone. You may disagree with his opinions if you choose, but you don't have to attack his character and his standing as "a true servant of God" to do that.

You seem to have a need to discredit everyone who disagrees with you. I'm not sure what Peabody could have done (other than damning the Earps to hell and disassociating himself from all of his friends) that would satisfy you. But where does this need to judge Peabody as a person come from? There's no reason in the world why you can't simply accept that he was what he was, an observer who was there at the time, an observer who reflected the point of view of one prominent group in Tombstone. That's all you need to do. You can point out the limitations of his comments without making him a hypocrit and fraud, IF you have the evidence to make your case on the merits. In fact, that this good man held the views he held helps to explain the situation in Tombstone, whether you agree with his observations or not.

You're overlooking the plain fact that Peabody's comments did not constitute a blanket endorsement of the Earps. If I accepted your views, I would choose, rather, to point out that Peabody's comments reflected a growing sentiment that the Earps should leave because the violence was getting out of hand. I would argue that such views by a man who, in principle, had supported the Earps in a stand against "cowboy criminality" and assassination, could not stomach the vendetta. For me, that is a more powerful argument of your case than to have to make Peabody a a weak-kneed hypocrit, "a little short of the requirements that would make him a true servant of God." That is a judgment I'd leave to God. Best! Gary

  • Speaking of Wyatt Earp...#251Tucson Bernie, Wed Jul 16 16:02
    "Secondly, because of Peabody, this is a vindication for the life of Wyatt Earp. A man's character can best be judged by the character of those who admire and knew him. Wyatt Earp can have no greater ... more
    • Am I missing something here?Anne Collier, Tue Jul 22 11:14
      I realize I have been busy the past week so I'm late to the dance, but it seems to me the quote that started this thread should be attributed to Cindy and not Peabody - am I missing something here?... more
    • Thanks for the post, Tucson Bernie (nm)James Wright, Sun Jul 20 16:14
    • Re: Speaking of Wyatt Earp...#251Tombstone Duffy, Fri Jul 18 10:48
      Thanks for a purrfectly fine post Tucson Bernie. Always a treat to hear from you.
    • Peabody's endorsement?Joyce Aros, Thu Jul 17 14:22
      One has to wonder just how much close association and observation of the Earp brothers Endicott Peabody actually had. Peabody seemed to be closely associated with Parsons, a man who was totally... more
      • Actually, JoyceGary Roberts, Sat Jul 19 10:14
        Peabody was first told about the Tombstone troubles by Judge Stilwell over dinner shortly after he arrived. Milton Clapp was another of his regular associates while he was in Tombstone. If you... more
      • There is no indication, Joyce...Allen Barra, Thu Jul 17 17:14
        that Peadbody'd "endorsement" of Wyatt Earp came from second hand sources. In fact, he seems to have known Earp better tha Parsons.
    • Re: Speaking of Wyatt Earp...#251Bob Cash, Wed Jul 16 16:45
      I know Cindy's book is a must read that I haven't read yet (it's on my list, Cindy), but I doubt that Rev. Peabody would have admired Wyatt if he knew about his pimping out the teen aged Sarah... more
      • PeabodyGary Roberts, Sat Jul 19 09:29
        Bob, You really should read this book. Peabody did not arrive in Tombstone until January 1882. He left in July, 1882. So he was there during the turmoil of the vendetta. In 1925, he described the... more
        • Gary/PeabodyJoyce Aros, Sun Jul 20 11:29
          Gary, I did read Cindy's book on Peabody's diaries and found it quite interesting and revealing about the man. However, on the quotes you offered regarding his comments on Earp's exit from Tombstone, ... more
          • Peabody's diaryGary Roberts, Sun Jul 20 12:39
            Joyce, I find diaries frequently frustrating because of what is NOT said. Most are written for one's self with no intent to share, so what IS shared is frequently important because it tells us what... more
            • Gary/PeabodyJoyce Aros, Sun Jul 20 20:19
              Hello Gary, There's a great deal of merit in what you say and much I have to agree with. But you do make my point that Peabody's viewpoint was likely more built on the views of the company he kept... more
              • What price judgment? — Gary Roberts, Mon Jul 21 08:32
                • Most will agree that Soapy Smith was not one of the "good" guys...yet in my research there are at least two priests that had good things to say about the man...and not so good things about lawmen.... more
                • Gary/ Judgemental?Joyce Aros, Mon Jul 21 11:40
                  I think that we are all forgetting that my comments and critical evaluations are based on and should be contained in the context of a discussion on the opening post from Tucson Bernie. Here Peabody,... more
                  • But Joyce,Gary Roberts, Mon Jul 21 13:38
                    in your posts you didn't disagree with Cindy and suggest that she overstated the case; you attacked Peabody. That led inevitably to the rest. And I fail to see what in Peabody's behavior in Tombstone ... more
        • Re: PeabodyBob Cash, Sat Jul 19 14:57
          Gary, Cindy's book is on my short list and several people have told me it was a signifigant contribution to the field. I was aware that Peabody, in general, viewed the Earps favorably as far as their ... more
      • If that was the case...Allen Barra, Fri Jul 18 12:42
        he would have excluded virtually everyone on the frontier, as just about everyone partook of similar vices some where along the line. As he got money for building St.Paul's from Wyatt's gambling... more
      • And Bob, I would addButch Badon, Thu Jul 17 12:23
        from my perspective that preachers are not exactly the kind of people I want to have vouching for me. Otherwise, I would have no trouble with the likes of Jim Bakker, Jerry Falwell, etc., etc.,... more
        • There's no way, Butch...Allen Barra, Thu Jul 17 17:13
          you're going to connect Endy Peabody and Jerry Falwell/Jim Bakker. Peabody was hugely respected in his own time, not merely as a man of the cloth but as an educator. Ask FDR.
          • Did not try and connect Peabody withButch Badon, Fri Jul 18 09:23
            those guys. Was connecting ALL PREACHERS with those guys. I was raised a Southern Baptist. I am now a BACKSLIDIN' BAPTIST and Proud of It. All PREACERS - Baptist or otherwise - are hypocrites. That's ... more
            • Your "opinions" aside..Allen Barra, Fri Jul 18 12:39
              there is nothing but good opinion of Peabody in his own time.
              • Yes and there are a lot of goodButch Badon, Sun Jul 20 12:50
                opinions today of what Rev. Billy Graham has done. But he was just another shyster looking for a politcal "in." And he found it in the person of Richard Nixon among others. Why do preachers get... more
                • and you don't get away with dismissing Peabody because you have an "opinion" of him based on no evidence at all. Everyone has a right to an opinion; noone has a right to have that opinion respected... more
                • Butch/ preachersJoyce Aros, Sun Jul 20 19:51
                  Butch, There is a lot of truth in what you say. Clergymen are not supposed to be involved in politics nor take sides in civic matters. Jesus said his followers would be 'no part of the world.' yet,... more
                  • I doubt Peabody considered Wyatt Earp a murder.Jeff Morey, Mon Jul 21 09:07
                    Joyce, In the 19th century, the notion of "justifiable homicide" was much more widely applied and embraced than it is today. Remember Joyce, you are simply a "commentator". Your opinions aren't... more
                    • Jeff/ Peabody.Joyce Aros, Mon Jul 21 12:06
                      Jeff, Scratch that last silly post, please. You are absolutely right. My opinions are indeed less than lightening bolts, and they don't come down from heaven. A good observation! However, are my... more
                      • Whatever you accomplishments.....Jeff Morey, Mon Jul 21 14:54
                        Joyce, Whatever your accomplishments, your disparagement of Endicott Peabody was very poorly considered. And, yes, I expect the Rev. Peabody did understand the difference between justifiable homicide ... more
                        • Disparagement?Joyce Aros, Mon Jul 21 19:58
                          Jeff, Perhaps so, but it has grown like Topsy unnecessarily. I would expect to hold any clergyman at any time and of any Christian denomination to the high standards set out in the scriptures they... more
                          • Are you unaware that...?Jeff Morey, Tue Jul 22 08:43
                            Joyce, Are you completely unaware that many people admired Wyatt Earp? Jeff Morey
                            • Jeff/ unaware?Joyce Aros, Tue Jul 22 10:39
                              I've noticed that. Seems odd to me, but then.......there are people who feel inclined to defend others who have less of a derogatory reputation than Wyatt Earp. Is the fact that many admired Earp... more
                              • No, Joyce......Jeff Morey, Tue Jul 22 15:56
                                Joyce, No, I would never expect you to change your opinions. Why should I? Jeff Morey
                          • You seem to forget, Joyce, that Jesus...Allen Barra, Tue Jul 22 01:29
                            spent quite a bit of time with people of low character. Peabody obviously regarded Wyatt Earp as of a better moral character than the people Earp was up against -- Billy Claiborne and his pals, for... more
                            • Allen, I find it amusing...SJ Reidhead, Tue Jul 22 13:55
                              I find it rather amusing that in order to turn Wyatt Earp into some sort of 'monster' or very bad character, or at least of someone 'worse' than the Behan bunch, his detractors must now take on... more
                              • Oh, but Jesus didn't know...Allen Barra, Wed Jul 23 13:28
                                that the Cowboys were thieves and killers, because no one ever arrested them. That means they were innocent in His eyes.
                              • SJ, not sure if you saw my post but...Jeff Smith, Tue Jul 22 14:15
                                Hi, SJ Reidhead. I am not sure if you saw my post regarding ministers who admired my g-grandfather, but basically I show that the admiration from a religious leader does not alter or change the truth ... more
                          • Re: Disparagement?Larry K, Mon Jul 21 21:00
                            Do you think Ike was ashamed of anything he did? Do you think there was any difference? How about Behan? Should he be ashamed? How about Curly Bill? Ringo? Stilwell?
                            • Larry K.....Joyce Aros, Mon Jul 21 21:29
                              Hello Larry, I am reasonably sure that all the people you mentioned seldom felt ashamed of things they did, though I really can't know, can I? But we are discussing Wyatt Earp and HE made the... more
                              • Re: Larry K.....Larry K, Tue Jul 22 16:24
                                Joyce, I seem to recall reading the "not ashamed" comment somewhere myself although, I can't remember if that was the actual wording. I do think the comment pertained to his time in AZ territory. The ... more
                                • Larry K/ Wyatt's comment......Joyce Aros, Tue Jul 22 22:47
                                  Doesn't it make you mad when you know you read something and now can't find it? I guess we all do that. Larry, If Wyatt did use the words I quoted, I would expect him to be ashamed of a number of... more
                            • There's that teeter-totter again...Jeff Smith, Mon Jul 21 21:08
                              Hi, Larry K. It's that teeter-totter effect again. When one side goes up the other automatically goes down. Everyone needs to stop seeing Tombstone and the events that occurred there in this way.... more
                        • Disparagement?Joyce Aros, Mon Jul 21 19:57
                          Jeff, Perhaps so, but it has grown like Topsy unnecessarily. I would expect to hold any clergyman at any time and of any Christian denomination to the high standards set out in the scriptures they... more
                          • Source?Jeff Morey, Tue Jul 22 08:47
                            Joyce, What is the source for the claim Wyatt said he wasn't ashamed of anything he ever did? Jeff Morey
                            • Jeff/ source?Joyce Aros, Tue Jul 22 09:32
                              Ah, Jeff! Now you have me. I was reading it just the other day again and cannot remember exactly where it is in this mess on my file cabinets. I will look for it and get back to you. I remember... more
                      • Joyce and Jeff, ......Jeff Smith, Mon Jul 21 12:28
                        Hi, Joyce and Jeff. I do not recall reading any of Joyce's posts and coming away with the idea that she believes she is 100% correct. In fact, often times I feel she tends to down-play herself.... more
                        • Jeff SmithJoyce Aros, Mon Jul 21 18:33
                          Those are kind and thoughtful words and very much appreciated, Jeff. Thank you! Regards, Joyce
                    • Jeff/PeabodyJoyce Aros, Mon Jul 21 11:14
                      ....Touche!
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