No one can tell me real, actual, tangible, positive....
Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:02pm (XFF:

...impacts will come from taking down Confederate monuments.

I can easily point to real, actual, tangible NEGATIVE impacts. For example...

I'm White. I'm a New Yorker, born and raised. My family tree has its roots in the northeast -- mainly Connecticut and New York.

Five of my ancestors wore Union blue and fought in the Civil War. Two of them were killed in battle fighting the Confederacy.

I don't have a racist bone in my body. I've had Black friends. I've dated Black women. I've served alongside Black Marines and Black soldiers.

I also attended a Military college in the South. The Virginia Military Institute.

Standing in front of the Cadet Barracks is a statue of Stonewall Jackson. He taught at the school before the war, and is buried in a cemetery in town. That statue was erected in 1912. In front of him is a battery of artillery pieces he used to teach artillery to the Cadets before the war, and that were used during the war by the Rockbridge Artillery. They were named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

In 1864 the VMI Cadets were called upon to assist in fighting an invasion of the Shenandoah by a Union Army. The Cadets marched miles down the valley, and were thrown into the battle. They played a pivotal role in the Confederate victory. 1 in 4 Cadets were casualties, including 10 who were killed.

Some of those Cadets were laid to rest in front of the Engineering building on Post. I was a Civil Engineering student and walked past them almost everyday. "Virginia Mourning Her Dead" sits in front of them. The Corps of Cadets recognizes their sacrifice every year with a parade in their honor.

And in the Cadet Chapel is a painting of their charge.

Like thousands and thousands of other monuments to Confederate soldiers everywhere in the South, NONE of these monuments have EVER been used as rallying points for White Supremacists, as many anti-statue zealots constantly and ignorantly claim. They weren't put up as in-your-face symbols attempting to intimidate Blacks and keep them in their place. They commemorate brave boys who went into battle and never came back. They commemorate a former Professor who went off to war and waged a brilliant campaign that is still used to teach tactics and strategy.

But VMI is a public institution. It isn't private. As such, it's only a matter of time before some group of ignorant anti-Confederate history zealots demand that these "public" monuments be taken down and "moved to a museum".

Doing that will do NOTHING to move race relations forward. Not one single person's life will be made better by doing that.

On the other hand, thousands and thousands of VMI graduates, myself included, will FIGHT to defend our school's history, and traditions, and these sacred monuments that are the very foundation of the school that we all love.

And because we'll fight to defend them, we'll be called racists and White Supremacists. Liberals will puke up their asinine "You lost, You need to get over it!" idiocy. Money and time and energy will be wasted. Graduates will be insulted, accused of being racists. There could even be violence.

And NONE OF IT will actually help one single goddamn person.

The school would lose much of its identity. Much of what it stands for. Citizen-soldiers. Service. Sacrifice.

And for what?


  • Excellent column on monuments issueRobert, Sat Aug 19 1:37pm
    from a black former NBC Atlanta affiliate and later CNN news anchor--now with CBS. At least it's excellent.....imo. Cuts through some of the self proclaimed morality involved and gets to the bottom... more
    • No one can tell me real, actual, tangible, positive.... — SES, Tue Aug 22 5:02pm
      • They Made The Wrong Choices...Amadeus, Wed Aug 23 11:05am
        And they were later celebrated for doing so. Later still, others pledge to fight to protect their tradition of honoring those mistakes - the honoring itself a mistake. It's sad, all the way around.... more
        • TROLL DELETED7Removed by moderator, Fri Sep 1 10:10pm
        • the Confederacy, per se. Where the cadets are actually buried is where it stands. That is why I don't agree that a monument that marks the burial plots of some of the dead cadets and is named... more
          • If The Only Dead Buried There...Amadeus, Mon Aug 28 10:17am
            ...are Confederate dead, that weakens the argument a bit. I agree that memorials to the dead are fine, on the battlefield or in the cemetery. Best when they are memorials to all the dead. Memorials... more
          • Case by casePikes, Sun Aug 27 10:50am
            You can't just say all such statues should be removed. Just like people, unique circumstances apply to each and every one.
      • You FailedMerlin , Tue Aug 22 5:52pm
        to "...point to real, actual, tangible NEGATIVE impacts."
        • Then you didn't read it.SES, Wed Aug 23 8:47am
          A negative impact -- Thousands of graduates of the Virginia Military Institute will be branded racist White Supremacists. Another negative impact - The school will lose much of its identity. Now --... more
          • You Call That Tangible Negative Impacts?!Merlin, Wed Aug 23 9:10am
            If VMI graduates choose to oppose moving their memorial to a more appropriate venue and context, then they will most likely be called names. Sticks and stones as the proverb has it. As for the... more
            • ...then you really shouldn't comment. The school is all about "citizen-soldiers". People who are just as capable of serving their community, as serving in the military. People who can drop their... more
              • well, I'd hate to think that little of any institution.
                • As expected...SES, Thu Aug 24 12:16pm
                  ...none of you Liberal pukes can come up with one single example of a person whose life will actually materially in a tangible way be improved by taking down "Virginia Mourning Her Dead" and digging... more
                  • belong there and should remain, the FACT remains that you ALSO have not given a single example of how a person's life will actually, materially, in a tangible way, be DAMAGED by taking down the... more
                    • ...demanding that these statues, that haven't hurt anyone in a hundred years, be taken down: Born: 5/29/1985 Died: 8/12/2017 Now, for the gazillionth time, tell me just ONE SINGLE PERSON whose life... more
                      • You...HeavyHemi, Sun Aug 27 2:27am
                        should be ashamed to even use her picture. That you would to support your own vile bigotry...I guess it was predictable...Trump Trooper.
                      • MANY will "get jobs" if they are removed...Sia☺giah, Fri Aug 25 11:42pm
                        Someone will have to be paid to remove them and install them elsewhere... There you go... All kinds of people will benefit with paid jobs to do that... **smirk**
                      • impacted in ANY MATERIAL, TANGIBLE WAY on EITHER side... Not negatively, not positively... I hate to have to clue you, but she was killed by a White Nationalist hell bent on hurting people he... more
                        • ...answering this simple question would require that you use logic instead of emotion. Simple question: Would Heather Heyer be dead today if no one had ever suggested that the Lee statue in... more
                          • Oh PUHLEEZE... Sia☺giah, Fri Aug 25 1:49pm
                            Heather Heyer would be alive today if ALT RIGHT PUKES didn't show up in Charlottesville so as to protect what THEY clearly view as SYMBOLS of their beliefs and people, such as yourself, didn't object ... more
                      • So...Amadeus, Fri Aug 25 10:06am
                        ...if we'll all just leave the racist monuments up, the racists won't have to murder anyone? That's your best argument? What? And after repeated explanations of how such displays have hurt... more
                        • What's YOUR argument?SES, Fri Aug 25 11:48am
                          If dumbsh*t scumsucking Liberal pukes hadn't made these monuments an issue, Heather Heyer would still be alive. That's just a simple fact. Something that dumbsh*t scumsucking Liberal pukes hate --... more
                          • No.Amadeus, Fri Aug 25 3:05pm
                            What's YOUR argument? If dumbsh*t scumsucking Liberal pukes hadn't made these monuments an issue, Heather Heyer would still be alive. The fact that you need to sprinkle the insults in shows the... more
                            • Well said... !! Sia☺giah, Fri Aug 25 4:55pm
                              Our only disagreement on the issue is if ALL of the statues and monuments should be removed, and if not, which ones should be... I'm totally open to any and all reasonable debates on individual... more
                          • by leaving them in place vs. moving most of them to a more appropriate historical context** such as historical museums, parks, cemeteries, and battlefields. Additionally, HOW is ANYONE'S LIFE going... more
                            • ...improved if the monuments remain where they are. Done. Fine. Let's go with that. Next question would be -- will anyone's life be improved by REMOVING the monuments? No one has been able to tell me ... more
                              • Why?wondering, Fri Aug 25 3:07pm
                                Why would attempting to remove those monuments get people killed? Or divide people? Why should anyone care about those monuments being removed any more than people care about them staying? Why?... more
                              • I believe that it's basically an EMOTIONAL ISSUE on BOTH sides??? NO ONE will be impacted in a tangible, touchable, life changing way no matter WHAT they do with the monuments... (other than if they... more
                              • You use any platform to bash LiberalsPikes, Fri Aug 25 1:53pm
                                It appears not only a highlight of your life, but perhaps its most shining moments.
                  • ExpectedHeavyHemi, Thu Aug 24 12:33pm
                    Demonstrated why the Marines knew you were not officer material.
              • Feelings, nothing more than feelings...HeavyHemi, Wed Aug 23 1:36pm
                Since your tangible revolves around it, it is true we can't feel your...the intangible. Too bad your education was not focused on areas that would have made you value honor over feelings.
              • Is your attitude a result of VMI education?Pikes, Wed Aug 23 12:33pm
                Do you represent the school, or does it represent you? My children would not have wanted to attend such a school, and didn't. Citizen soldiers"? The Salvation Army likes soldiers too. Members are... more
        • that HE and thousands of other current and former students would be UPSET... Pretty much the SAME thing he's dismissing as legitimate reasons for taking them down... PERSONALLY, I see NO REASON to... more
          • Agree--context is everythingTruthteller, Thu Aug 24 1:23pm
            I don't want ANY statues destroyed; but it would be good to remove them from gov't owned property and re-place then in confederate cemeteries and the like. I don't really see a problem with having... more
          • Unfortunately, another NEGATIVE impact of this asinine Liberal nonsense is that millions of people who are NOT as intellectually discerning as you are can NOT see the distinction. They've demanded... more
            • Both sides go hog wild sometimes...Truthteller, Thu Aug 24 1:26pm
              for me, I can't think of a better place to put them than at Gettysburg and other notable battlefield sites. And Derp Fuhrer was the one who brought up Washington and Jefferson. That's because he is... more
            • Gee...more feelings...HeavyHemi, Wed Aug 23 1:38pm
              You're always on the side of immature emotional outrage. Frankly I don't think you'd have my back when it counts. You'd be in a corner crying about how unfair it is.
    • I Disagree With Her...Amadeus, Mon Aug 21 2:30pm
      There is a difference between a museum (where it would be quite appropriate to have confederate flags, uniforms, etc.) and general, public spaces. Confederate symbolism has no place in the latter. It ... more
    • Well, she began the piece with a divisive statementSia☺giah, Sat Aug 19 11:42pm
      If she was attempting to stop the divisiveness of people being offended by symbols, then WHY did she begin with such a divisive declaration in her first sentence... Clearly, she has a strong bias... more
      • Here's why I consider her piece excellent.Robert, Sun Aug 20 12:21pm
        Yes she began the piece with a divisive statement, probably because the protesters she's addressing are divisive. I have the advantage of having watched Ms. Vaughn do the news here in Atlanta and I... more
        • or full understanding of her actual position only serves to fortify my belief that her viewpoint, AS EXPRESSED, conveyed something VERY DIFFERENT to those of us who are NOT familiar with her usual... more
        • I disagree.wondering, Sun Aug 20 1:40pm
          I don't think many of the protesters are doing it for self-righteous reasons, or to make themselves feel better for a weekend. Those monuments have been a constant reminder for far too long of a... more
          • 'Constant reminder' et, Sun Aug 20 3:20pm
            those with small or misguided minds maybe?
          • Excellent post wondering.Robert, Sun Aug 20 2:18pm
            I can assure you that among the protesters there is a significant number who have no/zero/nada appreciation of historical context---not all, but significant (on both sides), hence the... more
            • Or...Amadeus, Mon Aug 21 4:21pm
              1. That statue is offensive. It needs to be removed. 2. Why? It's just a statue of a guy on a horse, right? 3. It's a statue of a Confederate general. 4. Okay, but that's a part of our history. 5.... more
              • no.13 Really?....Yes, Really Amadeus.Robert, Tue Aug 22 2:07pm
                The World is not binary.
                • Of Course Not...Amadeus, Tue Aug 22 3:46pm
                  But it can be helpful to envision it as being made up of a variety of spectrums that range between two opposing extremes, those spectrums creating a multidimensional fabric of reality. Amadeus p.s.... more
                  • Sorry AmadeusRobert, Thu Aug 24 10:57am
                    Your first sentence is right on, however your posts, which is unusual for you, seem a lot closer to binary than multidimensional---Statues BAD: Removal GOOD---sounds kinda cave mannish, which is very ... more
                    • Sorry For What?Amadeus, Thu Aug 24 3:02pm
                      Each and every question must be answered on its own merit. But the general issue, answered in general terms, is generally clear. Let's not hem and haw. There are, indeed, historical markers that... more
                      • Sometimes right and wrong are binaryPikes, Thu Aug 24 6:49pm
                        Slavery is an example. So is genocide. There are no multidimensional perspectives on the wrong sides of those issues. One cannot exonerate or justify slavery or genocide. The statues in question, as... more
                        • there historically... The school, ITSELF, is directly related to each and every monument there... They were NOT erected as advocating Jim Crow or Black intimidation. They were built to tell the story ... more
                          • My Response...Amadeus, Fri Aug 25 9:59am
                            ...was directly to your point, Sia. The monuments fail spectacularly as monuments to the history of the school. Those cadets are examples of the worst the school has to offer. They made horrible... more
                            • ...get more people killed. The Cadets from VMI weren't called out to defend slavery. The Cadets from VMI weren't called out to keep Blacks in chains. The Cadets were called out to defend the... more
                            • the school is a "military war college"... Its students, at that time, were being groomed for exactly what they did... They didn't go to war to fight to preserve slavery, per se... They went to war to ... more
                              • Historically...Amadeus, Mon Aug 28 10:28am
                                ...families were split by this war - because of this war. Because of the issue of this war. Slavery. While revisionism wants to portray the cause of the South to be that of states rights, nothing... more
                                • than slavery as the defining issue... A common explanation is that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery. In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that... more
                                  • Slavery Was Most Certainly The Defining IssueAmadeus, Tue Aug 29 10:40am
                                    The South was petitioning to have the federal laws enforced more rigorously. It was not championing states rights as the cause of secession. Regardless of the tariff situation, northern states were... more
                                    • lots of detail that might have colored your view of it differently... For example, on the part about the moral evil vs the social evil, there was a lot more on that at the article... more snips for... more
                                    • of the piece was to put the Civil War into historical context, to explain the who, why, how, and what that triggered off the war... Without understanding what motivated each side, one is incapable of ... more
                                      • Not You, Sia...Amadeus, Wed Aug 30 10:57am
                                        I think you misunderstood me. I never thought YOU were justifying slavery or the South. I think there is a trend in the US to seek a broader reasoning for the South. I was reading an article about... more
                                        • In truth, it never occurred to me that you were suggesting that I, personally, was justifying evil by presenting the piece... I understood that you had meant the writer of the article and were simply ... more
                                        • There's zero comparison. None.SES, Wed Aug 30 5:10pm
                                          The Nazis invaded Poland. They invaded France. They invaded Russia. They invaded the Netherlands. They almost invaded Great Britain. They executed millions of people for no other reason than they... more
                                          • I understood him comparing how Germany handled their individual "evil history" and how America is handling our own "evil history"... NOT that the two evils were the same thing...
                                            • In that caseRobert, Fri Sep 1 4:10pm
                                              he should stop mentioning them side by side throughout several very long threads. Per Amadeus: "But I think the comparison is apt." If he understands the two evils are not the same thing then he... more
                                              • Or...HeavyHemi, Fri Sep 1 6:10pm
                                                You could stop being offended (why are you offended???) and quit arguing as if you do not know that context of what he was saying. Which I've reiterated, and which you apparently do not disagree with.
                                          • You made the same mistake.HeavyHemi, Wed Aug 30 5:46pm
                                            Germany does not honor their Generals and leaders of the Reich. The US in some respects does honor the leaders of the Confederacy. That is the difference. Diverting to claiming he's comparing the... more
                                        • "every one else always says that it is"!?!?Robert, Wed Aug 30 2:01pm
                                          You are so misinformed to make such an ignorant obtuse statement........... so much so as to be confused about 1940's genocide vs 1860's slavery.
                                          • He's not confused about Germany and the US.HeavyHemi, Wed Aug 30 3:21pm
                                            His point was that we should name and shame as does Germany. He's not equivocating the acts, but discussing the difference in how the societies responded to them. Germany does not honor Nazi warriors ... more
                                  • don't care much for historical context, because it doesn't fit their emotion based agenda to appoint themselves as morally superior. They often refer to fact based historical context as revisionism.
                            • VMI can do what they wantPikes, Fri Aug 25 1:46pm
                              if they're a private school. Display of those statues on their private property and endorsement from graduates like SES reflect poorly on the school to me and those like me. It may attract the likes... more
        • She Is RightMerlin, Sun Aug 20 12:33pm
          What a lot of people should ask themselves is: Are we less or more divided since the statue issue became headline material? Sobering I think we are neither less nor more divided. Rather our division... more
          • Rectification of ideasZhexue, Mon Aug 21 12:13pm
            The necessary condition for the achievement of Newspeak. I fully grant it's a tad of a, let's say 'loaded' framing, but I think the concern is perfectly valid. Plus I thought you might enjoy a bit... more
            • Or...Amadeus, Mon Aug 21 2:32pm
              Nazis are evil. Nazism is evil. We don't want to allow that evil a foothold. We experimented with already. It turned out very, very badly. No need to repeat that. Amadeus
          • Yes and noRobert, Sun Aug 20 1:36pm
            There has been nothing hidden about our division, but the loss of life in Va. should make it clear that we are more divided, huh? Agree completely that the time has come for it to be rectified.... more