MerelinAgreed: Fair or not, enabling the behavior has to stop.Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:20am24.228.93.156Fair or not, enabling the behavior by both women and specially men has to stop.
How people generally respond to such actions.... Sprout, Tue Nov 28 8:10amThere is a significant difference... If a random guy grabbed my ass, one of us is going to have the crap beaten out of us. Him or me depending on relative physical size and hand to hand combat skill. ... more
You are speaking from a MAN'S POV. That's where you Sia☺giah, Tue Nov 28 11:17amare making a serious error in how WOMEN react. Better for you to ASK women how it feels to them and what options they REASONABLY have under such circumstances. Surely you KNOW that women are weaker... more
And I think that "how women react" should be examined Sprout, Tue Nov 28 1:20pmjust as we want to examine how men behave... If we, as a society are decrying things like "toxic masculinity" and pushing for men to be less and less masculine, why should we NOT also look for women... more
Precisely! (nm) PH👏🏾👏🏾Ey, Fri Dec 8 10:01am I do not think that.... wondering, Tue Nov 28 3:18pmwomen should be expected to react physically to a physical or sexual assault. Should they speak up then and there and not wait until years later? Yes, of course. But there are many reasons women have ... more
As if females cannot be predatory? PH🌽🌽EY, Fri Dec 8 10:03amGet real! Good post. 👏🏾👏🏾 (nm) PH👏🏾👏🏾EY, Tue Nov 28 12:21pm Do you really think that Al Franken would have Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:21ambeaten the crap out of her IN FRONT OF CAMERAS if she slapped him for grabbing her ass?
Why would you think that from her post? HeavyHemi, Tue Nov 28 1:05pmAre you hung over?
In the situation being discussed why would Sprout, Tue Nov 28 1:11pmthe physical strength of the male being greater have any effect unless one was expecting that male to USE that physical strength against the victim?
Who is making that argument? HeavyHemi, Wed Nov 29 3:43amBesides the people in your head.
Then why bring up physical strength? Sprout, Wed Nov 29 7:57amOnce again, it is best that you read an entire thread before weighing in on a single post. You're done.
Indeed, why did you? HeavyHemi, Wed Nov 29 2:25pmOnce again...here's YOU "There is a significant difference... If a random guy grabbed my ass, one of us is going to have the crap beaten out of us. Him or me depending on relative physical size and... more
Precisely. (nm) Sia☺giah, Sun Dec 3 12:18am
I agree... wondering, Tue Nov 28 9:29amThe enabling has to stop, and that is what we see happening right now. The culture has to change, and that is never easy. It is complicated. If you were standing in front of a camera, and some... more
Life threatening Pikes, Tue Nov 28 10:36amTrouble with many females fighting back is they're alone with the male. Help is generally not available. By submitting to the rape, it is like playing dead with a predator. She hopes he will sniff... more A punch will be thrown... Sprout, Tue Nov 28 10:26amI may win, I may lose. I haven't won every fight I have been in. What do you think would have happened had the woman, when Franken grabbed her ass, gave him a good clean slap across the face? On... more
She wasn't alone Pikes, Tue Nov 28 10:40amThat's the trouble I have with this story. She was not alone with him. What man grabs a woman's ass in public with her hubby taking the photo? It doesn't make sense, and if things don't make sense,... more
Again, it is about the fact that the behavior had not Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:05ambeen corrected. A behavior that is being enabled frequently gets worse. The individual will keep pushing until he or she finds the limits. A dog will do the same thing. How many times did he grab ass ... more
The woman should have stopped it then and there Pikes, Tue Nov 28 2:33pmNot waited until N years later when the issue was made political. Especially since she had all the support she needed right there taking the photo! If it was my beloved, I would not only make a... more In some countries.... wondering, Tue Nov 28 11:17amA guy grabbing a woman's ass in public is seen as a compliment by many. Probably not so much if a man grabs a man's ass. Go figure.
Are you implying discrimination? (nm) PH👻👻EY, Tue Nov 28 12:23pm And what does that have to do with the price of tea Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:23amin China? Do you think that Franken is acting based on the fact that he thinks he is in one of those nations where a man grabbing a woman's ass in public is seen as a compliment by many? While I... more
Don't know about today, but Italy is one that comes to mind (nm) wondering, Tue Nov 28 11:32am
Hopefully the culture has changed there. wondering, Tue Nov 28 11:35amHopefully the culture is changing in a lot of places that have and still do condone barbaric customs and behavior.
I googled it and basically found a warning to tourists Sprout, Tue Nov 28 12:05pmthat females who are drunk and alone may be harassed by young single males... I'm not sure that would not be true anywhere. It also pointed out that DRUNK females are less likely to find sympathy in... more
Cultural norms.... wondering, Tue Nov 28 1:49pmare not the same for most any place in the world. I just watched a video that DFM posted on the R&E board where the groom slapped his new bride sharply in the face, I presume to show his 'authority'... more
- Agreed: Fair or not, enabling the behavior has to stop. Merelin, Tue Nov 28 9:20am
Interesting... Sprout, Tue Nov 28 10:24amThat if a dog craps on the carpet, you are worried more about other dogs in the house correcting the behavior than you are the owner correcting the behavior... When you are training a new puppy to... more
'I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you really believe what you just said.' - Merlin, Tue Nov 28 10:46amGood one, Merl! I couldn't have said it better myself! Peer Pressure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure >
LOL..... instead of correcting the Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:06amsituation on the spot, you advocate simply hoping that peer pressure corrects it down the road? Interesting.
Wrong, I Advocate Both Merlim, Tue Nov 28 1:03pmcorrecting the situation on the spot, and peer pressure.
But you didn't advocate both equally.... Sprout, Tue Nov 28 1:10pmAs if hoping the other dogs will correct the puppy was MORE important than the owner making the immediate correction.
No Prob. I'm Happy to Clarify. ;-) Merlin, Tue Nov 28 1:19pm
I would say that the MOST important part of Sprout, Tue Nov 28 1:23pmtraining is the immediate correction. Positive reinforcement of good behaviors is a good thing. And creating a positive environment where positive behaviors are rewarded is also a good thing. And so... more
Depends On Who Is Who As to the Balance Merlin, Tue Nov 28 2:03pmIn then case of a man such as Weinstein, an actress is in a very poor position to correct him, as his predation over 30 years proves. For someone like Weinstein you need peer pressure. Also, peer... more
That is why I point out the need for on the spot correction. Sprout, Tue Nov 28 2:51pmNot waiting 30 years to address it.
Weinstein's or Rose's Record Proves On the Spot Correction Does Not Always Work Very Well or At All - Merlin, Tue Nov 28 3:00pmThus, the need for Peer Pressure both to prevent and rectify such behaviour.
Which corrections were ignored? (nm) Sprout, Tue Nov 28 6:02pm
Obviously, All of Them Until Now. (nm) Merlin, Tue Nov 28 6:48pm
Are you assuming immediate corrections were given Sprouit, Wed Nov 29 7:59ammultiple times in the past? Because in the example we have been discussing, NO correction was given. The individual neither did, nor said, anything to the offender at all. Nor did anyone else in the... more
I Forgot To Mention Daddy Bush Merlin, Wed Nov 29 9:28amwho has been grabbing ass for decades and when his entourage is made aware of an incident they brush it off as it's just Daddy Bush being Daddy bush. Women have had very real and valid reasons for... more
So, you agree that there haven't been Sprout, Wed Nov 29 9:51amimmediate corrective actions... Fixing that shortage is key.
I agree haven't been enough successful immediate corrective Merlin, Wed Nov 29 1:18pmactyions which is why peer pressure is critical to encourage the volume of immediate corrective action, and ensure the success of immediate corrective action.
You haven't seen any immediate corrective actions... Sprout, Wed Nov 29 2:12pmAnd, for some reason are presuming them to be ineffective for some reason... I suspect is that you are desperately trying to push responsibility on anyone BUT the victim.
I Gave You Examples of Immediate Corrective Actions Merlin, Wed Nov 29 2:38pmand why they were unsuccessful. If you choose not to see the examples...
No you did not.... Sprout, Wed Nov 29 3:13pmSuing someone takes weeks or months to set up.... That fits NOBODY's definition of "immediate" except your spinning desperate attempt to make it fit.
Daddy Bush Was Not Sued - His Entourage Shrugged it Off Merlin, Wed Nov 29 3:37pmwhen they were told at the time saying it's just Daddy Bush being Daddy bush.
Yet anohter example of NO immediate correction.... Sprout, Wed Nov 29 4:37pmI'm still waiting for an example of an immediate correction that failed.
WTF is making you incapable of understanding that the Sia☺giah, Sun Dec 3 12:35amwoman DID COMPLAIN and was shot down with "That's just Bush being Bush" ???????? She is a powerless victim who used what was AVAILABLE TO HER. Telling others what he did to her. NO ONE CARED. THAT IS ... more
Complaining to OTHER PEOPLE is NOT the same.... duh. (nm) Sprout, Tue Dec 5 10:42am I take it that.... wondering, Sun Dec 3 6:23amwhat Sprout is saying is that if the woman doesn't immediately slap or punch the offender and risk being punched back (or possibly even killed) by a much stronger person, and risk being fired,... more
Or otherwise IMMEDIATELY correct the problem... Sprout, Tue Dec 5 10:43amNot wait until later. Or complain to other people... How about simple "Stop!" in a clear and loud voice? How unreasonable is that?
Why do you think... wondering, Wed Dec 6 1:13amthey didn't say "Stop!' or "No" at the time? Some guys don't seem to get the message, even when it is clear that their advances are not wanted or appreciated. Or maybe they do get the message, but... more
Events recorded in some cases... Sprout, Wed Dec 6 4:02pmAnd statements in others... That is precisely what his words have said. Whether that's Sia☺giah, Sun Dec 3 10:00amhis INTENDED message or not is not quite as clear. IMHO, his actual intended message is "Look at me! I'd punch the offender out because I'm a tough guy and I do whatever I have to do, even if I get... more
Amazing how quickly you go from... Sprout, Tue Dec 5 10:44am"I am woman, hear me roar." to "I am a weak and helpless victim."
On the other hand it is not amazing... HeavyHemi, Tue Dec 5 1:09pmThat you are blatantly dishonest in your characterization of her posts. We get it, you believe that unless a women physically confronts you immediately and screams no in your face repeatedly, she... more I would think... wondering, Sun Dec 3 12:06pmthat there are significant numbers of men, though probably far fewer than women, who have also been sexually harassed and assaulted. Sprout has already indicated that he would not appreciate someone... more
Well said. (nm) Sia☺giah, Mon Dec 4 2:35am Meanwhile, back in the Senate... Pikes, Sun Dec 3 12:48pmA gentle no is as resolute and forceful as a bold, or an aggressive no. It doesn't mean proceed, or yes, or rape. No is no. It is sad when gropers like Trump, and Weinstein, or abusers like Lauer,... more Leeann Tweeden Explicitly Spurned Franken's Sexual Advances Merlin, Wed Nov 29 8:50amand Franken refused to relent. Weinsten made a number of settlements with women. As did O'Reilly. Charlie Rose was corrected numerous times by his victims, but he persisted. When they escalated the... more
"spurned advance" is not a corrective action... Sprout, Wed Nov 29 9:48amAnd threatening to sue later is not an immediate corrective action either.
Of course it is a corrective action, one that often nips Merlin, Wed Nov 29 1:23pmsexual harassment in the bud. Suing immediately and receiving a settlement is of course an immediate corrective action.
Bill Clinton was asked why Pikes, Wed Nov 29 2:34pmhe pursued relations with Lewinsky and other women. Reply may be the most truthful thing the man ever said. "Because I could." It seems when some men attain positions of celebrity and power,... more
Power corrupts... absolute power corrupts absolutely.... (nm) Sprout, Wed Nov 29 3:16pm
Convenient platitude (nm) Pikes, Wed Nov 29 8:10pm
Human nature... Sprout, Thu Nov 30 7:24amAny plan to correct a perceived problem that fails to take it into account is doomed to fail. Marx is a great example of this I Seriously Question Clinton's Sanity Regarding Lewinsky Merlin, Wed Nov 29 2:45pmStarr had been hunting for something anything, to bring down Clinton and he had managed to successfully dodge every bullet with his name on it. To engage in oral intercourse with Lewinsky in the Oval ... more LOL... Sprout, Wed Nov 29 2:10pmSo, I guess if the dog chews up the slippers and you punish him for it tomorrow that is "immediate" to you.... Might want to look up the definition of that word.
Let's Stick to Reality Rather Than Your Canine Fantasies. Merlin, Wed Nov 29 2:50pmTakes more than a few hours or days to file a lawsuit. In any case, whether it took an hour or a week, it failed to reform Weinstein or prevent him from committing the same sexual assaults again and... more
Yes, it takes more than a few hours or days Sprout, Wed Nov 29 3:14pmto file a lawsuit... which is why that is NOT am immediate response.
Split Semantic Hairs While You Ignore the Example I Gave You Regarding Charlie Rose. - Merlin, Wed Nov 29 3:49pmYou're done, well done. ;-)
I ignore an invalid example.... Sprout, Wed Nov 29 4:39pmA lack of immediacy is a significant problem in training, whether it be humans or dogs. Immediacy in correction is what BEST enables the trainee to mentally connect the penalty to be behavior. Just... more
HUMANS understand language. They do NOT require Sia☺giah, Mon Dec 4 2:42amrolled up newspapers hitting their noses to correct them. Humans GET IT even years later. That's the nature of humans. Are you actually a canine, causing you to relate to dog behavior training for... more
The concept is IMMEDIACY... not one of communication tools.. Sprout, Tue Dec 5 10:41amLanguage later does NOT have the same effect as language immediately... Or do you think waiting till later to correct behavior is the better method?
You believe language is not a correction. HeavyHemi, Tue Dec 5 12:03pmYou believe the only form of correction is some sort of instant physical response. Too you simply saying no, is 'maybe'. Kids now days...
Language can be a correction IF it is Sprout, Tue Dec 5 12:10pmused properly and IMMEDIATELY... Complaining to someone else later is not.
Oh...back to only your precise meaning is applicable. HeavyHemi, Tue Dec 5 1:06pmMeanwhile everyone else realizes life is a little more complex than Spout. Of course you should have realized the correction should not be needed to begin with... but even worse, then you argue it is ... more Immediately is relative. HeavyHemi, Wed Nov 29 2:28pmAs soon as possible qualifies would fit into that paradigm.
LOL.... sure.... Sprout, Wed Nov 29 3:14pmI'll get back to you in a week or so... that's "immediate"... LOL
You demanding a word has only one meaning is funny. HeavyHemi, Thu Nov 30 1:47pmBecause that seems to only happen when you can't defend your point unless you demand only a single narrow interpretation of the word instead of how everyone else uses it. There's a reason you just... more Comparing sexual assault to dog crapping? Pikes, Tue Nov 28 10:45amStupefying.
Not at all... it's about enabling undesirable behavior... Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:01amWho is BEST able to immediately correct undesirable behavior? The person who FIRST becomes aware of it... And, in these cases, it will be the persons whose ass was grabbed yes?
A point I have been making for days en end. (nm) PH👏🏾👏🏾EY, Tue Nov 28 11:44am