Civilized General Discussion - Agreed: Fair or not, enabling the behavior has to stop.

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Merelin
Agreed: Fair or not, enabling the behavior has to stop.
Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:20am
24.228.93.156

Fair or not, enabling the behavior by both women and specially men has to stop.

How people generally respond to such actions.... — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 8:10am

There is a significant difference... If a random guy grabbed my ass, one of us is going to have the crap beaten out of us. Him or me depending on relative physical size and hand to hand combat skill. ... more

You are speaking from a MAN'S POV. That's where you — Sia☺giah, Tue Nov 28 11:17am

are making a serious error in how WOMEN react. Better for you to ASK women how it feels to them and what options they REASONABLY have under such circumstances. Surely you KNOW that women are weaker... more
And I think that "how women react" should be examined — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 1:20pm

just as we want to examine how men behave... If we, as a society are decrying things like "toxic masculinity" and pushing for men to be less and less masculine, why should we NOT also look for women... more
Precisely! (nm) — PH👏🏾👏🏾Ey, Fri Dec 8 10:01am

I do not think that.... — wondering, Tue Nov 28 3:18pm

women should be expected to react physically to a physical or sexual assault. Should they speak up then and there and not wait until years later? Yes, of course. But there are many reasons women have ... more
As if females cannot be predatory? — PH🌽🌽EY, Fri Dec 8 10:03am

Get real!
Good post. 👏🏾👏🏾 (nm) — PH👏🏾👏🏾EY, Tue Nov 28 12:21pm

Do you really think that Al Franken would have — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:21am

beaten the crap out of her IN FRONT OF CAMERAS if she slapped him for grabbing her ass?
Why would you think that from her post? — HeavyHemi, Tue Nov 28 1:05pm

Are you hung over?
In the situation being discussed why would — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 1:11pm

the physical strength of the male being greater have any effect unless one was expecting that male to USE that physical strength against the victim?
Who is making that argument? — HeavyHemi, Wed Nov 29 3:43am

Besides the people in your head.
Then why bring up physical strength? — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 7:57am

Once again, it is best that you read an entire thread before weighing in on a single post. You're done.
Indeed, why did you? — HeavyHemi, Wed Nov 29 2:25pm

Once again...here's YOU "There is a significant difference... If a random guy grabbed my ass, one of us is going to have the crap beaten out of us. Him or me depending on relative physical size and... more
Precisely. (nm) — Sia☺giah, Sun Dec 3 12:18am

I agree... — wondering, Tue Nov 28 9:29am

The enabling has to stop, and that is what we see happening right now. The culture has to change, and that is never easy. It is complicated. If you were standing in front of a camera, and some... more
Life threatening — Pikes, Tue Nov 28 10:36am

Trouble with many females fighting back is they're alone with the male. Help is generally not available. By submitting to the rape, it is like playing dead with a predator. She hopes he will sniff... more
Exactly — wondering, Tue Nov 28 11:12am

But in many cases, women are still alone even when they are not alone with the guy. When they reported on what the guy did to them, they were told, "Oh, that's just Harvey being Harvey." Kind of... more
A punch will be thrown... — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 10:26am

I may win, I may lose. I haven't won every fight I have been in. What do you think would have happened had the woman, when Franken grabbed her ass, gave him a good clean slap across the face? On... more
She wasn't alone — Pikes, Tue Nov 28 10:40am

That's the trouble I have with this story. She was not alone with him. What man grabs a woman's ass in public with her hubby taking the photo? It doesn't make sense, and if things don't make sense,... more
Again, it is about the fact that the behavior had not — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:05am

been corrected. A behavior that is being enabled frequently gets worse. The individual will keep pushing until he or she finds the limits. A dog will do the same thing. How many times did he grab ass ... more
The woman should have stopped it then and there — Pikes, Tue Nov 28 2:33pm

Not waited until N years later when the issue was made political. Especially since she had all the support she needed right there taking the photo! If it was my beloved, I would not only make a... more
In some countries.... — wondering, Tue Nov 28 11:17am

A guy grabbing a woman's ass in public is seen as a compliment by many. Probably not so much if a man grabs a man's ass. Go figure.
Are you implying discrimination? (nm) — PH👻👻EY, Tue Nov 28 12:23pm

And what does that have to do with the price of tea — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:23am

in China? Do you think that Franken is acting based on the fact that he thinks he is in one of those nations where a man grabbing a woman's ass in public is seen as a compliment by many? While I... more
Don't know about today, but Italy is one that comes to mind (nm) — wondering, Tue Nov 28 11:32am

Hopefully the culture has changed there. — wondering, Tue Nov 28 11:35am

Hopefully the culture is changing in a lot of places that have and still do condone barbaric customs and behavior.
I googled it and basically found a warning to tourists — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 12:05pm

that females who are drunk and alone may be harassed by young single males... I'm not sure that would not be true anywhere. It also pointed out that DRUNK females are less likely to find sympathy in... more
Cultural norms.... — wondering, Tue Nov 28 1:49pm

are not the same for most any place in the world. I just watched a video that DFM posted on the R&E board where the groom slapped his new bride sharply in the face, I presume to show his 'authority'... more
Agreed: Fair or not, enabling the behavior has to stop. — Merelin, Tue Nov 28 9:20am
Interesting... — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 10:24am

That if a dog craps on the carpet, you are worried more about other dogs in the house correcting the behavior than you are the owner correcting the behavior... When you are training a new puppy to... more
'I won't insult your intelligence by suggesting that you — really believe what you just said.' - Merlin, Tue Nov 28 10:46am

Good one, Merl! I couldn't have said it better myself! Peer Pressure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peer_pressure >
LOL..... instead of correcting the — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:06am

situation on the spot, you advocate simply hoping that peer pressure corrects it down the road? Interesting.
Wrong, I Advocate Both — Merlim, Tue Nov 28 1:03pm

correcting the situation on the spot, and peer pressure.
But you didn't advocate both equally.... — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 1:10pm

As if hoping the other dogs will correct the puppy was MORE important than the owner making the immediate correction.
No Prob. I'm Happy to Clarify. ;-) — Merlin, Tue Nov 28 1:19pm

I would say that the MOST important part of — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 1:23pm

training is the immediate correction. Positive reinforcement of good behaviors is a good thing. And creating a positive environment where positive behaviors are rewarded is also a good thing. And so... more
Depends On Who Is Who As to the Balance — Merlin, Tue Nov 28 2:03pm

In then case of a man such as Weinstein, an actress is in a very poor position to correct him, as his predation over 30 years proves. For someone like Weinstein you need peer pressure. Also, peer... more
That is why I point out the need for on the spot correction. — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 2:51pm

Not waiting 30 years to address it.
Weinstein's or Rose's Record Proves On the Spot Correction — Does Not Always Work Very Well or At All - Merlin, Tue Nov 28 3:00pm

Thus, the need for Peer Pressure both to prevent and rectify such behaviour.
Which corrections were ignored? (nm) — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 6:02pm

Obviously, All of Them Until Now. (nm) — Merlin, Tue Nov 28 6:48pm

Are you assuming immediate corrections were given — Sprouit, Wed Nov 29 7:59am

multiple times in the past? Because in the example we have been discussing, NO correction was given. The individual neither did, nor said, anything to the offender at all. Nor did anyone else in the... more
I Forgot To Mention Daddy Bush — Merlin, Wed Nov 29 9:28am

who has been grabbing ass for decades and when his entourage is made aware of an incident they brush it off as it's just Daddy Bush being Daddy bush. Women have had very real and valid reasons for... more
So, you agree that there haven't been — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 9:51am

immediate corrective actions... Fixing that shortage is key.
I agree haven't been enough successful immediate corrective — Merlin, Wed Nov 29 1:18pm

actyions which is why peer pressure is critical to encourage the volume of immediate corrective action, and ensure the success of immediate corrective action.
You haven't seen any immediate corrective actions... — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 2:12pm

And, for some reason are presuming them to be ineffective for some reason... I suspect is that you are desperately trying to push responsibility on anyone BUT the victim.
I Gave You Examples of Immediate Corrective Actions — Merlin, Wed Nov 29 2:38pm

and why they were unsuccessful. If you choose not to see the examples...
No you did not.... — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 3:13pm

Suing someone takes weeks or months to set up.... That fits NOBODY's definition of "immediate" except your spinning desperate attempt to make it fit.
Daddy Bush Was Not Sued - His Entourage Shrugged it Off — Merlin, Wed Nov 29 3:37pm

when they were told at the time saying it's just Daddy Bush being Daddy bush.
Yet anohter example of NO immediate correction.... — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 4:37pm

I'm still waiting for an example of an immediate correction that failed.
WTF is making you incapable of understanding that the — Sia☺giah, Sun Dec 3 12:35am

woman DID COMPLAIN and was shot down with "That's just Bush being Bush" ???????? She is a powerless victim who used what was AVAILABLE TO HER. Telling others what he did to her. NO ONE CARED. THAT IS ... more
Complaining to OTHER PEOPLE is NOT the same.... duh. (nm) — Sprout, Tue Dec 5 10:42am

I take it that.... — wondering, Sun Dec 3 6:23am

what Sprout is saying is that if the woman doesn't immediately slap or punch the offender and risk being punched back (or possibly even killed) by a much stronger person, and risk being fired,... more
Or otherwise IMMEDIATELY correct the problem... — Sprout, Tue Dec 5 10:43am

Not wait until later. Or complain to other people... How about simple "Stop!" in a clear and loud voice? How unreasonable is that?
Why do you think... — wondering, Wed Dec 6 1:13am

they didn't say "Stop!' or "No" at the time? Some guys don't seem to get the message, even when it is clear that their advances are not wanted or appreciated. Or maybe they do get the message, but... more
Events recorded in some cases... — Sprout, Wed Dec 6 4:02pm

And statements in others...
That is precisely what his words have said. Whether that's — Sia☺giah, Sun Dec 3 10:00am

his INTENDED message or not is not quite as clear. IMHO, his actual intended message is "Look at me! I'd punch the offender out because I'm a tough guy and I do whatever I have to do, even if I get... more
Amazing how quickly you go from... — Sprout, Tue Dec 5 10:44am

"I am woman, hear me roar." to "I am a weak and helpless victim."
On the other hand it is not amazing... — HeavyHemi, Tue Dec 5 1:09pm

That you are blatantly dishonest in your characterization of her posts. We get it, you believe that unless a women physically confronts you immediately and screams no in your face repeatedly, she... more
I would think... — wondering, Sun Dec 3 12:06pm

that there are significant numbers of men, though probably far fewer than women, who have also been sexually harassed and assaulted. Sprout has already indicated that he would not appreciate someone... more
Well said. (nm) — Sia☺giah, Mon Dec 4 2:35am

Meanwhile, back in the Senate... — Pikes, Sun Dec 3 12:48pm

A gentle no is as resolute and forceful as a bold, or an aggressive no. It doesn't mean proceed, or yes, or rape. No is no. It is sad when gropers like Trump, and Weinstein, or abusers like Lauer,... more
Leeann Tweeden Explicitly Spurned Franken's Sexual Advances — Merlin, Wed Nov 29 8:50am

and Franken refused to relent. Weinsten made a number of settlements with women. As did O'Reilly. Charlie Rose was corrected numerous times by his victims, but he persisted. When they escalated the... more
"spurned advance" is not a corrective action... — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 9:48am

And threatening to sue later is not an immediate corrective action either.
Of course it is a corrective action, one that often nips — Merlin, Wed Nov 29 1:23pm

sexual harassment in the bud. Suing immediately and receiving a settlement is of course an immediate corrective action.
Bill Clinton was asked why — Pikes, Wed Nov 29 2:34pm

he pursued relations with Lewinsky and other women. Reply may be the most truthful thing the man ever said. "Because I could." It seems when some men attain positions of celebrity and power,... more
Power corrupts... absolute power corrupts absolutely.... (nm) — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 3:16pm

Convenient platitude (nm) — Pikes, Wed Nov 29 8:10pm

Human nature... — Sprout, Thu Nov 30 7:24am

Any plan to correct a perceived problem that fails to take it into account is doomed to fail. Marx is a great example of this
I Seriously Question Clinton's Sanity Regarding Lewinsky — Merlin, Wed Nov 29 2:45pm

Starr had been hunting for something anything, to bring down Clinton and he had managed to successfully dodge every bullet with his name on it. To engage in oral intercourse with Lewinsky in the Oval ... more
LOL... — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 2:10pm

So, I guess if the dog chews up the slippers and you punish him for it tomorrow that is "immediate" to you.... Might want to look up the definition of that word.
Let's Stick to Reality Rather Than Your Canine Fantasies. — Merlin, Wed Nov 29 2:50pm

Takes more than a few hours or days to file a lawsuit. In any case, whether it took an hour or a week, it failed to reform Weinstein or prevent him from committing the same sexual assaults again and... more
Yes, it takes more than a few hours or days — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 3:14pm

to file a lawsuit... which is why that is NOT am immediate response.
Split Semantic Hairs While You Ignore the Example I Gave You — Regarding Charlie Rose. - Merlin, Wed Nov 29 3:49pm

You're done, well done. ;-)
I ignore an invalid example.... — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 4:39pm

A lack of immediacy is a significant problem in training, whether it be humans or dogs. Immediacy in correction is what BEST enables the trainee to mentally connect the penalty to be behavior. Just... more
HUMANS understand language. They do NOT require — Sia☺giah, Mon Dec 4 2:42am

rolled up newspapers hitting their noses to correct them. Humans GET IT even years later. That's the nature of humans. Are you actually a canine, causing you to relate to dog behavior training for... more
The concept is IMMEDIACY... not one of communication tools.. — Sprout, Tue Dec 5 10:41am

Language later does NOT have the same effect as language immediately... Or do you think waiting till later to correct behavior is the better method?
You believe language is not a correction. — HeavyHemi, Tue Dec 5 12:03pm

You believe the only form of correction is some sort of instant physical response. Too you simply saying no, is 'maybe'. Kids now days...
Language can be a correction IF it is — Sprout, Tue Dec 5 12:10pm

used properly and IMMEDIATELY... Complaining to someone else later is not.
Oh...back to only your precise meaning is applicable. — HeavyHemi, Tue Dec 5 1:06pm

Meanwhile everyone else realizes life is a little more complex than Spout. Of course you should have realized the correction should not be needed to begin with... but even worse, then you argue it is ... more
Immediately is relative. — HeavyHemi, Wed Nov 29 2:28pm

As soon as possible qualifies would fit into that paradigm.
LOL.... sure.... — Sprout, Wed Nov 29 3:14pm

I'll get back to you in a week or so... that's "immediate"... LOL
You demanding a word has only one meaning is funny. — HeavyHemi, Thu Nov 30 1:47pm

Because that seems to only happen when you can't defend your point unless you demand only a single narrow interpretation of the word instead of how everyone else uses it. There's a reason you just... more
Comparing sexual assault to dog crapping? — Pikes, Tue Nov 28 10:45am

Stupefying.
Not at all... it's about enabling undesirable behavior... — Sprout, Tue Nov 28 11:01am

Who is BEST able to immediately correct undesirable behavior? The person who FIRST becomes aware of it... And, in these cases, it will be the persons whose ass was grabbed yes?
A point I have been making for days en end. (nm) — PH👏🏾👏🏾EY, Tue Nov 28 11:44am

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