One needs to be able to measure whatever
Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:48am

standard you wish to apply. Whether it is "consciousness" or "awareness" or "personality" or whatever.

Whatever factor one wishes to use to determine that a fetus is now developed enough to be considered a separate organism and thus entitled to protection under the law MUST be quantifiable otherwise you end up simply unable to decide WHEN that occurs in development.

I defined my support expectations every clearly. If you need someone else to do it for you, look at the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

  • Doing so for a fetus is problematic. All that needs to be done is to establish the timeline for when the physiology develops that supports such activity. And we know when that physiology develops. It ... more
    • One needs to be able to measure whatever — Sprout, Fri Sep 14 8:48am
      • Amadeus was VERY CLEAR on when it is and it ISSia☺giah, Tue Sep 18 1:58am
        a quantifiable time frame that the development structures for awareness and consciousness are present. On average, it is about 26 weeks. That is a reasonable time frame to limit abortion to and... more
      • You Must Have Missed This PartAmadeus, Fri Sep 14 12:49pm
        Again, physical viability means what? Absolutely no support? At all? There are adult humans that need support, but we would consider the removing of that support without their consent murder . And... more
        • No different from any other organism...Sprout, Fri Sep 14 12:56pm
          Physical viability means it is not essentially part of another organism from minute to minute. Yes there are DAMAGED adult human beings that need life support in a hospital. Do you really not see the ... more
          • You Slightly Changed My Point...Amadeus, Fri Sep 14 1:17pm
            We don't pull the support from those who would possibly recover. To me, the idea of "viability" as a measure isn't a logical one. Humans at various stages of development need support and can be more... more
            • I never suggested we did.Sprout, Fri Sep 14 1:35pm
              My point is that trying to create some sort of measure of "awareness" or "personality" is going to be essentially impossible as these things are, by their very natures, not quantifiable. We can... more
              • Come On....Amadeus, Fri Sep 14 3:49pm
                I already answered this. We don't have to establish the individual onset of consciousness. We establish when the fetus develops the supporting physiology, because there is no reason to assume at that ... more
                • But we simply cannot measure "awareness" or "personality", so we cannot CREATE a standard that ways that they come into being at "X" week of pregnancy. We still have to be able to define and measure... more
                  • NNYYYYAAAAARGH!Amadeus, Fri Sep 14 10:49pm
                    We. Do. Not. Have. To. Measure. Awareness. We. Do. Not. Have. To. Measure. Consciousness. We simply have to know when the physiology exists that the brain needs to have in order to develop awareness... more
                    • Again, and again and again...Sprout, Mon Sep 17 9:02am
                      How can you measure when a brain is capable of supporting awareness when you can't even measure when awareness does or does not exist? You can't know either way. By insisting on these nebulous... more
                      • We Know...Amadeus, Mon Sep 17 9:45am
                        ...the parts of the brain required for consciousness/awareness/personality. We know when those parts of the brain develop in the fetus. Ergo, we know that until those parts develop,... more
                        • We know 'about when'...this happens.HeavyHemi, Mon Sep 17 3:03pm
                          Could you define,or articulate exactly when this was established as fact. We DO know the point in the development of the fetus where this dividing line is. When you state this, are you stating that... more
                          • Shorthand...Amadeus, Tue Sep 18 12:25pm
                            This thread has gone on for a while, so parts of the argument have moved into a shorthand of sorts. Science has been able to establish with a great deal of accuracy when the various parts of the... more
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