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Amadeus
Response
Fri May 2, 2014 11:48
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GOD CANNOT BE KNOWN DIRECTLY but only through Manifestations.
This is a claim, but there is no proof given here. Just a naked claim. My own religious experience says that God can be known directly. The religious experience of others says that God does not exist.

Baha'u'llah is the best Manifestation to know HIM through because 1500 page biography.
This is a claim. Its relevancy rests in the previous claim being true. A supporting reason is cited, but without establishing the prior claim, it is pointless.

COMMONALITIES. IF teacher had students write 100 page term paper and 6 students had TWENTY COMMONALITIES, the assumption would be plagiarism.
This is a claim, and it is not true. If they were all exactly the same, then the assumption would be plagiarism. If they are similar, then there are a number of possible explanations. Perhaps those twenty ideas were central to the class and subject, and so it is no surprise that the six students all touched on them in their own way. This is analogous to the commonalities seen in various religions. It is to be expected, since religions (regardless of their differences) fill similar needs and are comprised and bounded by similar structures, both social and ideological. Commonalities between religions does not prove that God exists or that God authored those religion because there exists an equally valid explanation that religion is a human construct, and since humans have many commonalities, so do religions.

ONE GOD, GOD can only be known through the Manifestation (Each claims to be "Only Way" but Each recognizes prior Manifestation and One Who will come at the end of times.
Several claims, none of them proven. There could be one God, no God, or many Gods. While some religions recognize previous religions as sources, they rarely consider them valid - rather, they consider them flawed and do not look forward to another religion (because that would be to consider themselves flawed). It is a twisting of those faiths to take any eschatological figures from those faiths out of context. In other words, there is nothing to support the idea that the looked for One from one religion is the same as the looked for One of another religion. While it may be tempting to look only at commonalities between the various Ones, it would be dishonest to ignore the differences, and there are many - including that not all faiths even look toward a One.

Each Holy Book contains prophecies about Him.
Again, the proof has not been presented (and does not exist) that the prophecies of various scriptures all refer to the same One.

Each claims God is His Source and to have existed before being born and...
Sure. All prophets and the like claim God(s) as their source. As to claiming to have existed before being born, no proof is presented. But the claim itself is irrelevant, because it would only prove that several religious figures made a claim that, itself, as not been proven.

Each had great Wisdom in childhood. In fact, i think Each was recognized in childhood. Jesus and Baha'u'llah were recognized as Babies.
This is a commonality that some religions share. As noted, it does not prove anything. I am wearing the same color shirt as my boss today. A commonality! What does it prove? Nothing. Unless you can provide PROOF of the reason for the commonalities, it remains irrelevant. You see commonalities and assume that the reason is...[insert the thing you want to prove here]. It doesn't work that way.

INCREDIBLY BRILLIAN LIGHT shone from their faces.
I don't believe you could cite scripture on this that applies to Jesus. And scripture itself isn't proof. It is a claim. Even so, light is a basic, general aspect of positive religious belief. See the response above concerning commonalities and childhood wisdom.

This is true of NDE BEING OF LIGHT.
This sentence makes no sense.

Each sacrificed His Life in an instant or over a period of many years.
Meaningless. Those who devote themselves to such causes could be considered to have sacrificed their lives to those causes. Again, refer to the points about above commonalities. Merely citing similarities between faiths or religious figures does not prove anything. I'll bet that my breakfast today had startling commonalities with the breakfasts of millions. Does that prove anything? No.

Each provided Salvation, Spiritual Transformation that enables us to produce Spiritual Fruits (Gal 5: 22 et seq) not just "good works" but VERY GREAT THINGS, LIVES OF LOVE AND SERVITUDE.
Salvation is a very specific idea in Christianity. While most Christians do recognize a personal, spiritual transformation, that is not what salvation is. Salvation is literally being saved, being rescued. In the case of Christianity, this is salvation from judgment and damnation. Also, your opinion on spiritual fruit is nice, but not proof of anything.

All talk about devil/satan which is symbol of selfish desire. For example Jesus told Peter "Get thee behind me Satan" clearly not literal.
Most faiths do not see their devil figure as symbolic. Judaism and Christianity both recognize a literal devil figure (although they disagree on the details). When Jesus refers to Peter as "Satan," that does not mean that Jesus sees Satan as a symbol and not literal. For example, Depeche Mode has a song that refers to the singer as "your own, personal Jesus" - this does not mean that Jesus was not a literal figure. It is a way to describe one person with all the attributes of another via a quick comparison. When Jesus referred to Peter as "Satan," he was warning Peter that his actions were evil. I referred to a friend that I play basketball with as "Michael Jordan." That does not mean that Michael Jordan is merely a symbol of basketball prowess. I consider Michael Jordan a real person. I was just using shorthand to describe how good my friend is at basketball.

ALL talk about Hell which is not permanent for anyone and Heaven which is permanent.
This is VERY debateable. Your statement here is your opinion, but many people (in their various faiths) would disagree with you. For example, as a Christian myself, I do not look forward to an afterlife in Heaven, but rather, in the Kingdom of God (which scripture says will be established on the Earth). My understanding of hell is that the punishment - true and final death - is permanent. We could each probably marshal scriptures to the argument, but the point remains that this is VERY much an argument and not in any way settled to where you could cite it as proof.

NDE ALSO PROVIDE Spiritual Transformation and prove forgiveness IS AVAILABLE in the next World.
For your claim here to be true, it would have to be proven that NDE are at all related to the "next world." You offer no proof. You just make an unsupported claim.

Contrary to popular belief. Like Baha'i Faith NDE proves Spiritual Progress is eternal and there are infinite levels of Heaven and each Soul goes to appropriate level.
This is just a claim. No proof is given. You simply assert your belief. That does not mean you are wrong, but you certainly have not proven anything.

Some are called spiritually "blind" especially clergy, condemned in all Religions.
This is meaningless. Sure, each faith will condemn those who do not agree or those who are perceived to have gotten it wrong in the past.

Teaching Religion is obligation of all.
This is another unsupported claim.

SPIRITUAL LOVE FOR ALL is SUPREME OBLIGATION OF ALL RELIGIONS AND NDE.
Another claim without support. Not all faiths fall in line here. See various forms of Buddhism.

John: "He who love not knows not God" so those pseudo religionists who preach hate do NOT KNOW GOD.
I'd be very careful about making dogmatic claims about who knows God and who does not.

SPIRITUAL LOVE IS UNCONDITIONAL but i don't know how to show Love on the bb. SORRY. ONLY KNOW HOW TO LOVE IN PERSON.
Personally, I don't believe you. If you can speak in love, then you can write in love. I see this as an attempted excuse for your horrible behavior - behavior that you, yourself have judged very harshly above.

LIGHT IS SPIRITUAL SYMBOL IN ALL RELIGIONS. NONE OF THOSE TEACHINGS EXIST IN ANY PHILOSOPHY OR false religions. They ONLY EXIST IN GOD'S RELIGIONS.
Then you'd better be prepared to accept a whole lot of pagan faiths as "God's religion" since many of them see light as a spiritual symbol. Plus, plenty of the moralistic teachings of the major religions also exist in philosophies and in the many smaller and more esoteric faiths. So, again, here you make claims with no proof - claims that are easily identified as being mistaken.

LIS, the Spiritual Transformations of countless individuals and societies are proofs.
Unless you can prove that what people experience as a spiritual transformation is anything more than just an emotional reaction, you have no proof. Unless you can prove that God is behind spiritual transformation, you have no proof. And as of yet, you have not proved those things. You have assumed them. That is fine for your own personal belief, but it certainly does not come CLOSE to being considered proof.

The Fruits are proofs. These INCLUDE but are not limited to countless hospitals, schools, universities, orphanages. Atheist nations have these things but the schools are for brain washing children and all other students and they kill countless people. YES, many Christians have done bad things but FAR MORE have done GREAT THINGS and still do.
Your claims about "brainwashing" could be made by those you disparage about the schools you approve of. They are opinions, offered without proof - just like the rest of your post. Many more people have been killed for religion than were EVER killed for atheism, and the biggest faiths for war crimes, by far, have been faiths you call God's Religions. Christianity and Islam top the list. Atheism rarely surfaces as the motivation for murder or war.

NDE are proofs of God because experiencers testify to experiencing GOD and experience Spiritual Transformation much like any Spiritual Transformation
No, they aren't. Just because a person says something and claims a spiritual transformation does not prove anything. It is merely claims, not proof. Just because I claim to have climbed Mt. Everest and to have had a spiritual transformation during the climb proves NOTHING. It does not even prove that I've been to Mt. Everest. It is only a claim.

and i can testify there are infinite ranges of Transformation because i am constantly transformed.
You can testify. But your testimony isn't proof. See Everest.

NDE have many proofs including clinically dead seeing with their eyes closed ACCURATELY, seeing things by the ceiling, in other rooms, across town. Going to Heaven and having "life review" where they FEEL EMOTIONAL IMPACT of all of their actions, see people whole who were handicapped.
Yet every scientific study of the NDE phenomena finds no such evidence, let alone proof. Each and every NDE can be debunked - and the scientific possible explanations have been presented here time and again. There are a handful, and they are not mutually exclusive. To clarify, science has discovered several ways that NDEs can happen that are not at all supernatural. They can explain how these processes work and provide real proof by recreating the experiences for people who are not near death. So your claims here do not constitute proof. Just wishful hoping.

This wholeness is referred to in Baha'i Writings. MANY things are learned in "Heaven" that were not known. People are seen and known who were not known in this world, biological fathers, siblings, grandparents.
The mind is powerful. It stitches together details we did not consciously notice, it incorporates information into memories after the fact (like reading a newspaper clipping about an accident you were in and incorporating details from the clipping into your memory). These things are documented, studied, known, and reproducible. Your claims to the contrary remain just claims - without proof.

There is an attempt to explain it as a malfunctioning brain or hallucination but malfunctioning brain is MALFUNCTIONING, NOT LUCID. HALLUCINATIONS ARE NOT LUCID AND ACCURATE AS NDE ARE. ALSO malfunctioning brain doesn't explain how blind can see or how closed eyes can see. Malfunctioning brain experiences are not accurately remember 30 years later and don't cause Spiritual Transformation. THEY ARE NOT LUCID.
Specific processes in the brain can produce vivid experiences that will seem lucid but will not be real. These are not limited to interactions with chemicals, oxygen deprivation, and magnetic interference. The mind (as noted above) is powerful, and it can create memories of vision. This has been done in the lab. It is reproducible. Your unwillingness to admit to it doesn't add anything to your claims.

THEN we have Fear Death Experiences which have no effect on the brain. FDE ARE BASICALLY SAME AS NDE and include OBE AND going to the Light.
You make claims here, but offer no supporting information. You cite nothing in terms of the differences between Fear Death Experiences (which I am assuming are the whole "life flashing before your eyes because you might die) and NDEs. Now, you've moved very far afield. You've gone from trying to prove God exists and that Baha'i is the true faith to trying to prove that these FDEs are really similar to NDEs in experience, but not in brain chemistry - hoping that proving that will support both NDEs and FDEs as real experiences. But nowhere in your post have you offered proof. You have simply made claim after unsupported claim. That isn't nearly good enough.

Shared Death Experiences are all different but the experiencer NEVER DIES so the brain is not effected. NEARLY ALWAYS they experience another person's death and often go to Heaven or at least part way there with a person who dies. They are very common among military medics holding dying soldiers. i read article about SDE 30 yrs ago before NDE was a known term.
Nothing but claims here. No proof. Not even any citations of anecdotal evidence. Just claims.

Death Bed Visions are always lucid, EXTREMELY COMMON, and sometimes shared by children. i read one DBV a little girl shared w/her grandmother. i have read three books on the subject, two in US. They do not occur during hysteria, hallucination, etc. A friend had one as is common when she was talking to a friend.
Claims. Claims. Claims. No proof. Just claims. Personal testimony is not proof. It may convince YOU, but that does not make it proof.

After Death Communication are also very common and each is different. Sometimes i see a person who has died, mother, father, grandmother, Baha'u'llah, Abdul Baha, sometime is like hearing a voice, sometimes its an unknown person who is later known. My little friend Christian was seen on the stairs by his brother the night he drowned.
Coincidence. I dream of friends all the time, but the one time I dream of a friend on the night he dies, suddenly you'd latch on to that as proof of something. Or if I dreamed of him the week before he died. Or right after he died. Really, you seem ready to latch onto anything as proof, when in reality, it is a coincidence that you are assuming (without proof) holds meaning.

A cardiologist and neurologist told me there is NO POSSIBLE NATURAL EXPLANATION FOR ANY OF THE DEATH EXPERIENCES and that is obvious If you don't agree, offer one.
MANY have been offered by experts in various fields. I would bet that the cardiologist and neurologist would have told you anything to get out a conversation with you on the subject. I also would bet that they had been trained not to create conflict with people over beliefs on the subject. It is entirely possible that they accepted that you believed such, and that you misinterpreted their acceptance as agreement.

(continued)

  • Holding For ResponseAmadeus, Thu May 1 16:28
    GOD CANNOT BE KNOWN DIRECTLY but only through Manifestations. Baha'u'llah is the best Manifestation to know HIM through because 1500 page biography. COMMONALITIES. IF teacher had students write 100... more
    • Natural explanation for NDESWK, Thu Aug 6 12:54
      http://www.dailygrail.com/Shamanism/2013/8/Does-DMT-Explain-the-Near-Death-Experience
    • Response — Amadeus, Fri May 2 11:48
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