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Pat
Dan
Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:21am
69.145.72.21

The letter may not be by Hoffman but it is doubtful that it is written by Butch. The only provenance you give for this letter is that it was donated by Harvey Murdock.It did not even come to light until 1965 and was not donated until 1970. That does not prove provenance.
You did not answer if any tests were done on the letter such as ink or paper dating. Nor did you answer why Butch would even write Matilda Davis when her daughter Maude was divorced from Elzy several years and had no love for him . And why Butch would put his address on the top of the letter when he knew that the mails were being searched. Nor did you answer why it could not be a letter written by another aquaintance of Matilda and the address at the top added later to make it appear it was from Butch. Nor did you answer why Matilda or Maude would not have reported it for the reward. Nor did you state if it matched the handwriting of any known Cassidy notes or letters. Nor did you answer why the 2nd page with signature and envelope is missing. There were more forgers running around in Utah then a Klan gathering in GA.
It is my opinion this letter is not as it is purported to be. Until I see concrete evidence to the contrary.

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  • Today in Wild Bunch history — Vince Garcia, Fri Aug 10 5:39am
    Aug. 10, 1904. Butch details their livestock holdings in a letter to Matilda Davis (Elza’s mother-in-law) back in Utah.
    • August 10, 1902 letter provenance — Daniel Buck, Sun Aug 12 5:08am
      I do not have any reason to doubt the authenticity of the August 10, 1902 letter. The provenance is excellent and predates the career of Utah forger Mark Hofmann. A photocopy of the letter was... more
    • correction: Aug. 10, 1902, not '04 (nm) — Vince Garcia, Sat Aug 11 11:25am
    • Butch didn't write that letter — Pat, Fri Aug 10 10:00am
      It's a forgery.
      • What is the evidence of forgery? — Vince Garcia, Fri Aug 10 3:34pm
        Or are you presuming it must be a forgery because you do not believe Butch went to SA? thx
        • questionable at best — Pat, Sat Aug 11 9:24am
          Using logic there is a lot of problems with this letter. Mainly Butch would not have written to Matilda as her daughter was divorced from Elzy for several years and there was a lot of animosity over... more
          • Long on speculation — Vince Garcia, Sat Aug 11 12:04pm
            Your post is rather long on speculation more than actual fact. Past that, the list of people who apparently accept that letter as legit, and cite it in their writings (apart from legions of secondary ... more
            • Vince — Pat, Sat Aug 11 12:51pm
              Have you ever had an original thought? And no Dan does not accept it.
              • Re: Vince — Vince Garcia, Sat Aug 11 1:02pm
                I suggest you go ask that of Bill Bentenson and Donna Ernst. For some reason you want to focus on me, and demean me for relying on the accepted history of Butch CAssidy. I suggest you go rag on... more
                • Vince — Pat, Sat Aug 11 1:17pm
                  You began this attack on me and when I turned the tables you run crying to mama. If you don't like what I post simply ignore it. But if you want to engage me then I will give back as good as I get.... more
        • Funny — Pat, Fri Aug 10 5:30pm
          It's because I actualy think and do original research . Not like you that just accepts what anyone wants to write about. And copies it off the internet. I am not the only one who has come to this... more
          • Pat's "original research" — Vince Garcia, Fri Aug 10 7:19pm
            Why am I not surprised you offered not one bit of proof the letter is a fake? And this brilliant methodology of "original research" of yours is how you have concluded: Butch never robbed hardly... more
            • Consider this too — Pat, Sat Aug 11 11:19am
              The propaganda machine spread the news that Butch had gone to SA. There is no proof whatsoever that this is true. They also said Logan went to SA. So were they right about either one? Follow the... more
            • Worth reading — Pat, Sat Aug 11 9:55am
              You may want to read the the article in the Idaho Statesman, Nov 18, 1897. It is a long article about the gangs in the Powder Springs, Baggs, and Craig area. It lists many names of outlaws and the... more
              • You may also want to read this article — Jack, Sun Aug 12 8:07am
                Publication: Steamboat Pilot (Steamboat Springs, Routt County); Date: Aug 10, 1898; Section: Front page; Page: 1 JEFF DUNBAR OUTLAW Ending of a Career Notorious in Criminal Annals. WAS AN OULAW BY... more
                • JEFF DUNBAR OUTLAW — Jerry Lobdill, Mon Aug 13 2:54am
                  Jack, Thanks for posting this article. I wish there was more of this kind of post on the subject on this board and less childish sniping. If this article is legit and credible it seems to imply that... more
                  • Re: JEFF DUNBAR OUTLAW — Jack, Mon Aug 13 12:10pm
                    Jerry & Dan, The Jeff Dunbar articles were probably all penned by Willis George Emerson, who was known for sensationalizing. I’ve heard a lot of stories about Jeff Dunbar, none were positive. As far... more
                    • George R. Caldwell — Jack, Wed Aug 15 6:56pm
                      August 1897 George R. Caldwell correspondent of the Denver News wrote Bandits of the Border. Similar versions same article, November 1897 The Idaho Daily Statesman, Organized Highwaymen Terrorize... more
                      • Munchausen borrowing from Marco Polo — Daniel Buck, Thu Aug 16 8:38am
                        Thanks, Jack. Helpful information. Willis George Emerson rewriting George R. Caldwell sounds like Baron von Munchausen borrowing from Marco Polo. By the way, I ran Emerson's name thru a two more... more
                    • Willis George Emerson — Daniel Buck, Mon Aug 13 4:11pm
                      Jack, Thanks, good summary. I'd forgotten about Emerson. His byline, "Willis George Emerson, Grand Encampment, Wyo, Aug. 6, 1898," is barely readable on a splotchy, microfilm copy of his August 7,... more
                  • Amen Jerry and Thanks Jack! (nm) — Leah, Mon Aug 13 10:06am
                  • Jeff Dunbar — Daniel Buck, Mon Aug 13 5:35am
                    Jerry, Jeff Dunbar and as well William "Mike" Dunbar, reportedly his brother, who might have been linked to the Winnamucca holdup, are mentioned briefly in Ernst (2009), Burton (2012). Patterson... more
                    • Dunbar — Jack, Mon Aug 13 9:02am
                      William “Mid” Nichols saloon partner of John “Jack” Ryan Baggs, Wyoming. Vernal Express 1894-08-16 Sheriff Geo. Searle received a telephone message from Fort Duchesne, Tuesday morning stating that... more
                      • DIED WITH HIS BOOTS ON — Jack, Mon Aug 13 12:35pm
                        THE CARBON COUNTY JOURNAL SATURADAY JULY 30, 1898 DIED WITH HIS BOOTS ON. Jeff Dunbar Falls From Bullets Fired By Jim Davis. DIXON THE BLOODY SCENE. Davis Full of Wounds But Will Probably Recover --- ... more
                      • Re: Dunbar — Daniel Buck, Mon Aug 13 10:02am
                        Thanks, Jack. By the way, years later, December 23, 1915, the Encampment Record ran a short recollection on Dunbar and Davis, describing Dunbar as a "noted highwayman" who along with "his associates... more
                        • Yes Dan — Pat, Mon Aug 13 12:56pm
                          He got his rep the same way Butch did. The propaganda machine in WY.Wy Stock Growers, RR, Pinks and yellow journalists. Not to mention Col Jay L Torrey who had a personal vendetta. Here is a story... more
                • Jack — Pat, Sun Aug 12 12:14pm
                  I have read that. Dunbar killed 100 or more men? Phew, he was the most prolific killer in all the west. Wonder why no one has written a book about him. But while you are at it and so good at... more
                  • Great Robber Gang — Jack, Sun Aug 12 12:52pm
                    Pat Maybe you will find this article more to your liking? Jeff Dunbar Dec 10, 1897 Wheatland World
                  • Re: Jack — Jack, Sun Aug 12 12:33pm
                    Pat You liked and encouraged everyone to read the Idaho Statesman Nov 18, 1897 article. You don’t like the Steamboat Pilot article of Aug 10, 1898, why because it mentions Butch Cassidy?
                • Among his associates may be mentioned “Broncho” Johnson - Wi (nm — Anonymous, Sun Aug 12 8:43am
            • We will take this one at a time — Pat, Sat Aug 11 9:37am
              I did not say Butch never robbed nor did I say he was a willing Patsy. You completely misconstued what I said. He was not an outlaw until he got out of prison and then it is anyones guess what all he ... more
              • Re: We will take this one at a time — Vince Garcia, Sat Aug 11 12:16pm
                I didn't say you said he "never robbed". I said you seem to claim he "hardly robbed" anything. Maybe I've missed it, but I know of no major Cassidy historian who has opined or claimed that Butch was... more
                • Re: We will take this one at a time — Pat, Sat Aug 11 12:56pm
                  Vince if there were any Peers of mine on this forum I would share with them and I have . And you certainly are not one. Nor are you a historian or a genealogist. You are a groupie who decides what... more
                  • Re: We will take this one at a time — Anonymous, Sat Aug 11 2:35pm
                    Pat To bad Badland Mary is no longer with us, she would have kicked your lying ass!!
                  • Re: We will take this one at a time — Vince Garcia, Sat Aug 11 12:59pm
                    You--not me--are the one who wants to be acknowledged as having the "real" truth about Butch Cassidy. You--not me--are the one who wants to rewrite history. Deal with it
                    • Yes — Pat, Sat Aug 11 1:11pm
                      And you are a sheep that follows the flock and are incapable of an original thought. History is an ongoing work and nothing is accepted unless there is incontrovertible facts. I don't put anything on ... more
            • You finally figured that out? (nm) — Pat, Fri Aug 10 7:58pm
          • By the way.. — Pat, Fri Aug 10 5:34pm
            I found something in the mss of Phillips that Pointer overlooked . It is a doozy.
            • By the way — Anonymous, Sat Aug 11 10:00pm
              I don't think so.
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