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Thanks Dan
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:56pm

Here is why I'm asking . Just a thought so don't go all ballistic. LOL

DeYoung opened his shop at 826 broadway in 1902. His partner as you alluded to was a woman Matilda Wallace .When he died in 1919 on Dec 18 in his estate papers he left her half of his business. He only left his wife and son $5.00 each. Assuming since Wallace inherited 1/2 the business she may have retained the photos from previous years. In 2000 the NY Pinkerton office donated the famous Harry place and Ethel photo to LoC.Wonder if they have any other De Young photos.

Now for the reason I am asking. It was said from 1902 on up until 1907 DeYoung displayed his sample photos in an outside display case. Which means he kept his negatives and or photos after he took them. I worked for many months on this with mark. We never determined what happened to Matilda Wallace if that was her real name or maybe she married.

But more important is that if at the time of SD photo it was a wedding celebration and supposedly James Ryan was with them and bought Ethel a watch and was living in same apt then he was part of the wedding party. She said he was her brother.Since the Pinkertons had only the photo of SD and Ethel but none of Butch /Ryan then they had to use the Cassidy prison photo. Or the Ft Worth 5 photo.

Now if there were other photos taken of the wedding party and included photo of James Ryan then maybe the Pinks dismissed it because it was not Butch. They had decided because they could not find Butch that it must be him.They had no proof of that .But they needed to be right. So the real James Ryan photo may have existed . And with today's info on all other outlaws or friends of SD then may be that photo can be identified as to who the real James Ryan was.

I know you will say no to this idea but that's because you like the Pinks wanted/needed it to be Butch . They disregarded any other photos of men at the time.

Also in SA while Dimaio was asking Spaniards and natives to id the photo's I doubt they looked past the pic of Ethel. The guy said to be Butch could have been a blonde blue eyed gringo who looked similar. It is possible so don't say no. If there were some source for the other photos DeYoung took and if they have been archived someplace then maybe we could look through them for 1902 and see who else he took a photo of?

  • Re: Dan or anyone questionDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 12:24pm
    Pat, As far as I know, when the DeYoung died in 1919, he left half of his studio property to his business partner, and the other half don't know. Nor do I know if the studio then closed, was sold, or ... more
    • Thanks Dan — Pat, Mon Nov 13 12:56pm
      • De YoungsMark Mszanski, Tue Nov 14 10:42pm
        It is possible a photo could have been taken - But the Pinks were pretty thorough - They gumshoed Union Square with the photos and one can surmise got the land lady at 234 East 12th ( Catharine... more
      • Re: Thanks DanDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 2:02pm
        Pat, Forgot to mention, Argentina is and was in the early 1900s demographically a European country, especially Buenos Aires. Moreover, Dimaio showed Sundance and Cassidy photos to employees of a... more
        • Re: Thanks DanPat, Mon Nov 13 2:39pm
          Maybe the lost Cassidy file you mentioned was sent to LA office and when it was auctioned off Bob Mc bought it all. Maybe he knows.
      • Re: Thanks DanDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 1:53pm
        Pat, I'm having trouble following you -- don't go ballistic, heh . If the Pinkertons located DeYoung and the SK&EP photo, we might assume they asked DeYoung for other photos & none were found. The... more
        • Dan again thanksPat, Mon Nov 13 2:36pm
          We can disagree. There was no photo of Cassidy in NY. There is no evidence that he was Ryan other than the Pinks thinking he was. And there is no evidence how Cassidy nor Ryan got to SA. It is so... more
          • Re: Dan again thanksDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 4:34pm
            Pat, Saying there "is no evidence" when in fact there is evidence -- in both New York and Argentina -- is not a very productive line of inquiry. Dan
            • Since Pat brought up the Lay letter...ChrisV, Mon Nov 13 5:10pm
              All of the Butch letters have a similar look. To the casual observer, they look pretty much the same. However, every one of the letters has discrepancies. Im sure someone will chime in and say... more
          • Re: Dan again thanksVince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 3:31pm
            Pat, you're awfully free with the term "no evidence:" there is an abundance of evidence. You just dismiss, deny it, or seem to want video proof, then claim there's "no evidence." based on your own... more
            • Here we goPat, Mon Nov 13 4:58pm
              Dan I have never known you to take the word of someone as proof . That's all you have on the Davis letter. The real Lay (Calvert) family dismisses it vehemently. And the Parker family would believe... more
              • Re: Here we goDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 7:25pm
                Parker/Cassidy/Ryan in New York & in Argentina: 29 July 1902 Pinkerton memo: "At 234 East 12th Street Longbaugh had with him George Parker. He was known at this boarding house under the name of... more
                • Eye Witness accounts abound as well in SOAMMark Mszanski, Mon Nov 13 8:00pm
                  Dan - Vice Council George Newbury had met Butch, Sundance and Ethel in person and ID'd them to Detective Frank Dimaio based upon the photos sent to Dimaio by the Pinkerton Agency while he was in... more
                  • Eyewitness accountneglib, Tue Nov 14 6:29am
                    And what year did Newbury met them? Brett
                    • Year?Mark Mszanski, Tue Nov 14 6:50am
                      Accoding to his own notes , Frank Dimaio arrived in Buenos Aires in 1903. Based upon this date, Newbury would have known the trio in at least 1902 and possibly even as early as 1901 upon their... more
              • Memory stretchingVince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 5:54pm
                I'm really stretching here, and my books are buried so I can't check. Dan can quickly confirm if I'm right or wrong and may even be able to give the quote. But doesn't Wm French in his memoirs say... more
                • Vince I have the French bookPat, Tue Nov 14 9:18am
                  French did not get any of his info from Lay. He had moved to his ranch in Trinidad by then and was merely repeating gossip. . In 1906 Lay got out and with his partner George Musgrave left to go get... more
                  • Re: Vince I have the French bookVince Garcia, Tue Nov 14 9:54am
                    Pat--you're trying to say French was what? Was confusing another many for Lay? He wasn't sure who Lay was? Made up the whole story? Lay never visited him? He repeated gossip and inserted Lay into the ... more
                • Re: Memory stretchingDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 6:57pm
                  Vince, Your memory is good -- I had completely forgotten about this. William French, Some Recollections of a Western Ranchman (1965), pp. 283: Elzy Lay told French a year or so after Lay had been... more
                  • reprint of bookPat, Tue Nov 14 9:20am
                    Dan a year or 2 after Lay got out in 1906. That would be when Lay and Musgrave were in Rawlins ,WY. It's all BS.
                    • Re: reprint of bookDaniel Buck, Tue Nov 14 11:22am
                      Pat, Lay was released from prison in January 1906. If we are going to split hairs, a year or so is not a year or two, it's a year more or less. Anyway, French was not referring to his Blackberry;... more
                  • Re: Memory stretchingVince Garcia, Tue Nov 14 2:23am
                    So will the argument now be that "Jim Lowe" wasn't Butch Cassidy, but that "Jim Lowe" was actually another man? What more do we need? I really don't get this denial that Butch went to SA.
                    • Re: Memory stretchingDaniel Buck, Tue Nov 14 3:07am
                      Evidence has no currency in the universe of trolls & obscurants. Evidence is the enemy. Few are even vaguely familiar with the basic facts. They spend their time not researching, but trolling.
              • Re: Here we goVince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 5:27pm
                Well, let's start with the most accepted lore on Butch and SD after Winnemucca. Whatever my view, I think most would accept the claim that Butch and SD were seen in Colorado together, where SD gave... more
          • Re: Dan again thanksChrisV, Mon Nov 13 3:16pm
            Lots of empty file folders at the LOC too.
            • re:Bob Goodwin, Tue Nov 14 5:44am
              Maybe Sandy Berger stuffed them down his pants, or Reality Winner stuffed them in her pantyhose.
              • Bob maybe Pat, Tue Nov 14 9:10am
                It may be the guy who was looking at the Lexus files at LoC and found Buck's info and book in there and said on the film "What the hell is Buck doing in here" LOL. Maybe Dan stuffed them down his... more
                • Re: Bob maybe ChrisV, Tue Nov 14 9:15am
                  It didnt fit his "pet evidence and theory" so it disappeared.....scary
              • re:ChrisV, Tue Nov 14 5:46am
                I can think of one better Bob....
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