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Daniel Buck
Re: Thanks Dan
Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:53pm

I'm having trouble following you -- don't go ballistic, heh .

If the Pinkertons located DeYoung and the SK&EP photo, we might assume they asked DeYoung for other photos & none were found. The Pinkertons were admirably methodical in their 1902 hunt -- DeYoung, Tiffany, boarding house, steam lines, etc. Unless I am mistaken, always a looming possibility, DeYoung was at 814 Broadway in 1901, the year of the portrait, and moved to 857 Broadway in 1902.

The idea that SK&EP got married in 1901 & the photo is a wedding portrait is speculation. There's no evidence of a wedding.

The idea that there is no photo of Cassidy because Ryan was not Cassidy and therefore the Pinkertons did not recognize a photo of Ryan that DeYoung had is beyond speculation. You are starting with your conclusion -- Ryan was not Cassidy -- and working backward via speculation.

Presumably, DeYoung would have had in 1902 when the Pinkertons came calling records of the SK&EP shoot. If it had been a wedding shoot, records of the entire shoot. That's generally how photography studios keep records, best I know. And the Pinkertons would have scooped up all the photos from the shoot whether they recognized the people in them or not.

Keep in mind that by July 1902 the Pinkertons had two photos of Cassidy, his mugshot & the FW5 & one of Sundance, the FW5. In the foundational document of the 1902 investigation, the 29 July 1902 memo, the Pinkertons do not mention showing photographs around to various parties, but that was their SOP.

Also, this from the memo: "At 234 East 12th Street Longbaugh had with him George Parker. He was known at this boarding house under the name of Ryan." That's pretty good evidence that the Pinkertons knew Cassidy was there, using the name Ryan, and probably had shown the landlady photographs.

Now this: Why is there not more in the memo re Cassidy? The memo is a Criminal History memo, no. 7111, on Sundance. The agency wrote a separate memo on Cassidy: "See history Geo. Parker, this date."

That memo is not to my knowledge in the Pinkerton archives, and in fact I don't think James Horan mentions it -- I'm writing from memory -- meaning it was lost decades ago. Dan

  • Thanks DanPat, Mon Nov 13 12:56pm
    Here is why I'm asking . Just a thought so don't go all ballistic. LOL DeYoung opened his shop at 826 broadway in 1902. His partner as you alluded to was a woman Matilda Wallace .When he died in 1919 ... more
    • De YoungsMark Mszanski, Tue Nov 14 10:42pm
      It is possible a photo could have been taken - But the Pinks were pretty thorough - They gumshoed Union Square with the photos and one can surmise got the land lady at 234 East 12th ( Catharine... more
    • Re: Thanks DanDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 2:02pm
      Pat, Forgot to mention, Argentina is and was in the early 1900s demographically a European country, especially Buenos Aires. Moreover, Dimaio showed Sundance and Cassidy photos to employees of a... more
      • Re: Thanks DanPat, Mon Nov 13 2:39pm
        Maybe the lost Cassidy file you mentioned was sent to LA office and when it was auctioned off Bob Mc bought it all. Maybe he knows.
    • Re: Thanks Dan — Daniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 1:53pm
      • Dan again thanksPat, Mon Nov 13 2:36pm
        We can disagree. There was no photo of Cassidy in NY. There is no evidence that he was Ryan other than the Pinks thinking he was. And there is no evidence how Cassidy nor Ryan got to SA. It is so... more
        • Re: Dan again thanksDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 4:34pm
          Pat, Saying there "is no evidence" when in fact there is evidence -- in both New York and Argentina -- is not a very productive line of inquiry. Dan
          • Since Pat brought up the Lay letter...ChrisV, Mon Nov 13 5:10pm
            All of the Butch letters have a similar look. To the casual observer, they look pretty much the same. However, every one of the letters has discrepancies. Im sure someone will chime in and say... more
        • Re: Dan again thanksVince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 3:31pm
          Pat, you're awfully free with the term "no evidence:" there is an abundance of evidence. You just dismiss, deny it, or seem to want video proof, then claim there's "no evidence." based on your own... more
          • Here we goPat, Mon Nov 13 4:58pm
            Dan I have never known you to take the word of someone as proof . That's all you have on the Davis letter. The real Lay (Calvert) family dismisses it vehemently. And the Parker family would believe... more
            • Re: Here we goDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 7:25pm
              Parker/Cassidy/Ryan in New York & in Argentina: 29 July 1902 Pinkerton memo: "At 234 East 12th Street Longbaugh had with him George Parker. He was known at this boarding house under the name of... more
              • Eye Witness accounts abound as well in SOAMMark Mszanski, Mon Nov 13 8:00pm
                Dan - Vice Council George Newbury had met Butch, Sundance and Ethel in person and ID'd them to Detective Frank Dimaio based upon the photos sent to Dimaio by the Pinkerton Agency while he was in... more
                • Eyewitness accountneglib, Tue Nov 14 6:29am
                  And what year did Newbury met them? Brett
                  • Year?Mark Mszanski, Tue Nov 14 6:50am
                    Accoding to his own notes , Frank Dimaio arrived in Buenos Aires in 1903. Based upon this date, Newbury would have known the trio in at least 1902 and possibly even as early as 1901 upon their... more
            • Memory stretchingVince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 5:54pm
              I'm really stretching here, and my books are buried so I can't check. Dan can quickly confirm if I'm right or wrong and may even be able to give the quote. But doesn't Wm French in his memoirs say... more
              • Vince I have the French bookPat, Tue Nov 14 9:18am
                French did not get any of his info from Lay. He had moved to his ranch in Trinidad by then and was merely repeating gossip. . In 1906 Lay got out and with his partner George Musgrave left to go get... more
                • Re: Vince I have the French bookVince Garcia, Tue Nov 14 9:54am
                  Pat--you're trying to say French was what? Was confusing another many for Lay? He wasn't sure who Lay was? Made up the whole story? Lay never visited him? He repeated gossip and inserted Lay into the ... more
              • Re: Memory stretchingDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 6:57pm
                Vince, Your memory is good -- I had completely forgotten about this. William French, Some Recollections of a Western Ranchman (1965), pp. 283: Elzy Lay told French a year or so after Lay had been... more
                • reprint of bookPat, Tue Nov 14 9:20am
                  Dan a year or 2 after Lay got out in 1906. That would be when Lay and Musgrave were in Rawlins ,WY. It's all BS.
                • Re: Memory stretchingVince Garcia, Tue Nov 14 2:23am
                  So will the argument now be that "Jim Lowe" wasn't Butch Cassidy, but that "Jim Lowe" was actually another man? What more do we need? I really don't get this denial that Butch went to SA.
                  • Re: Memory stretchingDaniel Buck, Tue Nov 14 3:07am
                    Evidence has no currency in the universe of trolls & obscurants. Evidence is the enemy. Few are even vaguely familiar with the basic facts. They spend their time not researching, but trolling.
                    • TrollsBob Goodwin, Tue Nov 14 5:58am
                      Dan, you know that Pat is not a Troll. she has her opinion, which is different than yours. She believes that Butch never went to South America, but ended up in Mexico instead. To support that belief, ... more
            • Re: Here we goVince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 5:27pm
              Well, let's start with the most accepted lore on Butch and SD after Winnemucca. Whatever my view, I think most would accept the claim that Butch and SD were seen in Colorado together, where SD gave... more
        • Re: Dan again thanksChrisV, Mon Nov 13 3:16pm
          Lots of empty file folders at the LOC too.
          • re:Bob Goodwin, Tue Nov 14 5:44am
            Maybe Sandy Berger stuffed them down his pants, or Reality Winner stuffed them in her pantyhose.
            • Bob maybe Pat, Tue Nov 14 9:10am
              It may be the guy who was looking at the Lexus files at LoC and found Buck's info and book in there and said on the film "What the hell is Buck doing in here" LOL. Maybe Dan stuffed them down his... more
              • Re: Bob maybe ChrisV, Tue Nov 14 9:15am
                It didnt fit his "pet evidence and theory" so it disappeared.....scary
            • re:ChrisV, Tue Nov 14 5:46am
              I can think of one better Bob....
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