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Vince Garcia
Re: Dan again thanks
Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:31pm
2001:558:6012:3e:a01f:f375:bbc:9802

Pat, you're awfully free with the term "no evidence:"

there is an abundance of evidence. You just dismiss, deny it, or seem to want video proof, then claim there's "no evidence." based on your own personal standards for proof not being met.

That's not "no evidence"; that's "I'm not convinced"

Take the letter to Matilde Davis. You don't like to acknowledge it, though the rest of the world by and large does, including the parker and Lay families, but it has good provenance and is most reasonably viewed as a letter from Butch to Davis detailing the goings on down in SA. What there is no evidence for is that the woman would have known a James Ryan on that ranch who would have penned it rather than Butch Cassidy; and there is no concrete evidence it is a forgery other than claiming it is based on no solid forensic evidence.

  • Dan again thanksPat, Mon Nov 13 2:36pm
    We can disagree. There was no photo of Cassidy in NY. There is no evidence that he was Ryan other than the Pinks thinking he was. And there is no evidence how Cassidy nor Ryan got to SA. It is so... more
    • Re: Dan again thanksDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 4:34pm
      Pat, Saying there "is no evidence" when in fact there is evidence -- in both New York and Argentina -- is not a very productive line of inquiry. Dan
      • Since Pat brought up the Lay letter...ChrisV, Mon Nov 13 5:10pm
        All of the Butch letters have a similar look. To the casual observer, they look pretty much the same. However, every one of the letters has discrepancies. Im sure someone will chime in and say... more
    • Re: Dan again thanks — Vince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 3:31pm
      • Here we goPat, Mon Nov 13 4:58pm
        Dan I have never known you to take the word of someone as proof . That's all you have on the Davis letter. The real Lay (Calvert) family dismisses it vehemently. And the Parker family would believe... more
        • Re: Here we goDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 7:25pm
          Parker/Cassidy/Ryan in New York & in Argentina: 29 July 1902 Pinkerton memo: "At 234 East 12th Street Longbaugh had with him George Parker. He was known at this boarding house under the name of... more
          • Eye Witness accounts abound as well in SOAMMark Mszanski, Mon Nov 13 8:00pm
            Dan - Vice Council George Newbury had met Butch, Sundance and Ethel in person and ID'd them to Detective Frank Dimaio based upon the photos sent to Dimaio by the Pinkerton Agency while he was in... more
            • Eyewitness accountneglib, Tue Nov 14 6:29am
              And what year did Newbury met them? Brett
              • Year?Mark Mszanski, Tue Nov 14 6:50am
                Accoding to his own notes , Frank Dimaio arrived in Buenos Aires in 1903. Based upon this date, Newbury would have known the trio in at least 1902 and possibly even as early as 1901 upon their... more
                • 1902neglib, Tue Nov 14 6:55am
                  Don't stretch the facts. It was 1902.
                  • Switch the facts ?Mark Mszanski, Tue Nov 14 7:14am
                    I am not aware of Newbury stating which year he met them . You obviously think I am switching the facts . Do you have evidence as to whether it is 1901 or 1902? Can you present it here?
                    • RE:1902neglib, Tue Nov 14 7:45am
                      Frank Dimaio interviewed neighbor Dr. Newbery in March 1903 who said the following about Place and Ryan: “good fellows, doing well, doubled stock…within last year” which would mean 1902.
        • Memory stretchingVince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 5:54pm
          I'm really stretching here, and my books are buried so I can't check. Dan can quickly confirm if I'm right or wrong and may even be able to give the quote. But doesn't Wm French in his memoirs say... more
          • Vince I have the French bookPat, Tue Nov 14 9:18am
            French did not get any of his info from Lay. He had moved to his ranch in Trinidad by then and was merely repeating gossip. . In 1906 Lay got out and with his partner George Musgrave left to go get... more
            • Re: Vince I have the French bookVince Garcia, Tue Nov 14 9:54am
              Pat--you're trying to say French was what? Was confusing another many for Lay? He wasn't sure who Lay was? Made up the whole story? Lay never visited him? He repeated gossip and inserted Lay into the ... more
          • Re: Memory stretchingDaniel Buck, Mon Nov 13 6:57pm
            Vince, Your memory is good -- I had completely forgotten about this. William French, Some Recollections of a Western Ranchman (1965), pp. 283: Elzy Lay told French a year or so after Lay had been... more
            • reprint of bookPat, Tue Nov 14 9:20am
              Dan a year or 2 after Lay got out in 1906. That would be when Lay and Musgrave were in Rawlins ,WY. It's all BS.
            • Re: Memory stretchingVince Garcia, Tue Nov 14 2:23am
              So will the argument now be that "Jim Lowe" wasn't Butch Cassidy, but that "Jim Lowe" was actually another man? What more do we need? I really don't get this denial that Butch went to SA.
              • Re: Memory stretchingDaniel Buck, Tue Nov 14 3:07am
                Evidence has no currency in the universe of trolls & obscurants. Evidence is the enemy. Few are even vaguely familiar with the basic facts. They spend their time not researching, but trolling.
                • TrollsBob Goodwin, Tue Nov 14 5:58am
                  Dan, you know that Pat is not a Troll. she has her opinion, which is different than yours. She believes that Butch never went to South America, but ended up in Mexico instead. To support that belief, ... more
                  • Re: TrollsDaniel Buck, Tue Nov 14 7:42am
                    Bo Hmm, I did not name any trolls, how did you deduce I was speaking of Pat Schroeder? Smile. A troll is someone who routinely posts provocative remarks in in order to stir up controversy. You are... more
                    • Oh My!Pat, Tue Nov 14 9:04am
                      If I am a troll then Dan you are a bully. It has to be your way or the highway. However I will post "All" my evidence that Butch did not go to SA if you will publish all 1500 pages of the Godoy files ... more
                    • Confirmation BiasChrisV, Tue Nov 14 8:07am
                      "PS I don't have pet theories, I have pet evidence. The theory follows the evidence." Actually, I think you have confirmation bias. All of us probably suffer from this.
        • Re: Here we goVince Garcia, Mon Nov 13 5:27pm
          Well, let's start with the most accepted lore on Butch and SD after Winnemucca. Whatever my view, I think most would accept the claim that Butch and SD were seen in Colorado together, where SD gave... more
    • Re: Dan again thanksChrisV, Mon Nov 13 3:16pm
      Lots of empty file folders at the LOC too.
      • re:Bob Goodwin, Tue Nov 14 5:44am
        Maybe Sandy Berger stuffed them down his pants, or Reality Winner stuffed them in her pantyhose.
        • Bob maybe Pat, Tue Nov 14 9:10am
          It may be the guy who was looking at the Lexus files at LoC and found Buck's info and book in there and said on the film "What the hell is Buck doing in here" LOL. Maybe Dan stuffed them down his... more
          • Re: Bob maybe ChrisV, Tue Nov 14 9:15am
            It didnt fit his "pet evidence and theory" so it disappeared.....scary
        • re:ChrisV, Tue Nov 14 5:46am
          I can think of one better Bob....
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