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ChrisV
Enrique or H.A. Place
Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:23am
163.248.244.209

Looking at documents and eyewitness reports they refer to themselves as Enrique, H.A., Harry A Place and James, Santiago, J.P. Ryan. Seems awfully confusing. If your trying to establish yourselves as legit cattlemen why use different names? The only thing I can think of is is that they thought it was funny to go with a Latin name. Maybe a when in Rome type of thing. But why sign government documents with a self given nickname?

A great example of the confusion is on page 12 of DUB Buck/Meadows.....Milton Roberts says the two called themselves Enrique Place and James Ryan when they came to Cholila in 1902. The part thats confusing me is why if Milton knew SK as Enrique did SK sign his name on a UNVERIFIED document as a witness H.A. Place on the November 5, 1901 document.

    • adding upDaniel Buck, Wed Nov 29 6:27am
      Chris, there is nothing unusual about any of the "not adding up" items you offered. They do add up, that is, they make sense. People are often known by different names or nicknames, usually... more
      • Correct DanPat, Wed Nov 29 9:44am
        Or should I say D J Buck .On this forum alone we have V G Garcia, P.H.Schroeder, Ghost Town Bob, and a slew of nicknames . I have always used P.H. everywhere and especially legal documents. On FB you ... more
        • Re: Correct DanDaniel Buck, Wed Nov 29 10:00am
          Pat, That is the case in most families. I had an aunt who converted all her nephew's names into some sort of Latinate language, Josef, Roberto, Lorenzo, and so on. Signatures are the same. Not only... more
        • Don't forget Helen ShepherdChrisV, Wed Nov 29 9:51am
          Im sure your daughter goes by Moose on government documents right?
          • Well ChrisPat, Wed Nov 29 11:34am
            Since you have no clue as to who I am or was I will try to enlighten you if that's at all possible. Shepherd was my former married name. I legally through the courts and SS took back my former name... more
            • Re: Well ChrisChrisV, Wed Nov 29 11:43am
              Sorry to hear that your Helen S. email got hacked. Who did you say hacked it again? Sorry you feel that way about Utah.
              • It's notPat, Wed Nov 29 12:13pm
                how I feel about Utah. It's just plain facts and documents that anyone can look up. But then you aren't a genealogist either.
                • Re: It's notChrisV, Wed Nov 29 12:24pm
                  "Plain facts." I Ilke that. Your "plain facts" and Dan's documents are about the same thing lol Any time you want to bet "half of Utah has one man married to numerous women with separate surnames and ... more
                  • Chris give it up pleasePat, Wed Nov 29 1:15pm
                    I realize you are upset with me because I refused to forward you my private emails from Dan. Then you rudely wanted me to will all my research to you when I die . LOL. Then you wanted Vince's email... more
      • Re: adding upChrisV, Wed Nov 29 7:46am
        Speaking of not adding up How about the May 1, 1905 document and the April 19, 1905 document. Roughly two weeks apart, but have different signatures, different handwriting and both from the same... more
        • Re: adding upDaniel Buck, Wed Nov 29 12:39pm
          Chris, aside from Cassidy signing one J.P. Ryan and the other Santiago Ryan, they look comparable to me, and comparable to his 29 Feb 1904 letter to Dan Gibbon.
          • Re: adding upChrisV, Wed Nov 29 12:44pm
            Thanks for answering me. Not trying to be smart, but Id look a little harder at the handwriting overall. Look at "Dan Gibbon" in both these documents. An easy one to spot.
            • Re: adding upDaniel Buck, Wed Nov 29 12:58pm
              Chris, The two Dan Gibbon's a comparable, with some difference in the two Ds. If the handwriting was absolutely identical, that would be worthy of comment . No two specimens from the same person are... more
              • Re: adding upChrisV, Wed Nov 29 1:13pm
                Dan Sorry, but I disagree with you. Not just the D's. Look at the bb and the n. It is not the same style. With all due respect, these excuses are not going to cut it any longer. Handwriting experts,... more
                • giving up Ethel for the causeDaniel Buck, Wed Nov 29 1:38pm
                  Chris, while you are at it, try my little experiment, and show the results to your friends.. I just wrote out Dan Gibbon's name several times quickly, pencil on paper. Lots of variations. Then I... more
      • Re: adding upChrisV, Wed Nov 29 7:19am
        Dan, People are known by nicknames with friends or family. On government documents they go by their official names. Since Butch and SK wanted to be known by their aliases i.e. James Ryan and Harry... more
        • Re: adding upDaniel Buck, Wed Nov 29 9:51am
          Chris, just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't add up. It just might mean you don't understand it. What we have here is another example of something that actually... more
          • Re: adding upChrisV, Wed Nov 29 9:59am
            Dan, Im asking a legitimate question. How about the May 1, 1905 document and the April 19, 1905 document. Roughly two weeks apart, but have different signatures, different handwriting and both from... more
            • Re: adding upDaniel Buck, Wed Nov 29 10:02am
              What documents exactly? Dan
              • Re: adding upChrisV, Wed Nov 29 10:13am
                They are in the "Leaving Cholila" article April 19, 1905 note from Ryan asking Clarke to give order to Dan Gibbon May 1, 1905 Ryan assigned 285.44 peso debt to his friend Dan Gibbon
    • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceChrisV, Tue Nov 28 10:33am
      Names in chronological order. Whether from eyewitness accounts or documents they signed.They seem to be confused which names to go by lol. Something thats bugging me, if SK deposited money as Harry... more
      • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceChrisV, Tue Nov 28 12:11pm
        You would think they would sign the government documents with proper names i.e.. Harry A. Place, James P. Ryan. They don't. Going through the government document signatures they sign randomly:... more
        • 2 +2 =5neglib, Tue Nov 28 2:02pm
          I'm sure it makes total sense to some. After all, if it's in a museum it must be real.
          • Re: 2 +2 =5KikiV, Tue Nov 28 3:07pm
            lol yes. Good Point Brett. You still want to go by Brett don't you?
        • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceVince Garcia, Tue Nov 28 2:01pm
          chris--You do realize Santiago is the equivalent of the name James in Spanish?
          • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceChrisV, Wed Nov 29 5:34am
            It seems as historians we generally call them James Ryan and Harry Place when in SA. There is no document where they both sign as that. Ive never seen a SK where he signs Harry at all. Its HA or... more
          • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceChrisV, Tue Nov 28 2:26pm
            Vince, Yes. Did you know my name is Kiki in Hawaiian? When I sign official documents half the time I call myself Chris and sometimes I go by Kiki. Once in awhile, I like to go by C. V. just to mix... more
            • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceVince Garcia, Tue Nov 28 3:42pm
              I regularly have issues when I give the name Vince instead of Vincent w/some entities when i call up for some issue
              • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceChrisV, Tue Nov 28 3:49pm
                Vince....my point exactly. It would be silly to do this on government docs. You already are on the lamb and have an alias that you want people to believe as you want to stay in the area for awhile... more
                • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceVince Garcia, Tue Nov 28 5:52pm
                  I am stretching my memory here and could well be wrong, but I seem to recall at times Butch allegedly claimed to be a native, hence the Spanish name. Dan can correct me if I'm wrong
                  • Re: Enrique or H.A. PlaceChrisV, Tue Nov 28 6:00pm
                    Interesting. Id think that would be hard to pull off not speaking fluent Spanish or none at all. I would also think that a native name such as Enrique or Santiago would be earned as they made friends ... more
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