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Pat
Bob, let's choke this chicken
Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:02am
98.127.161.155

As many of you know Bob and I have worked privately for many many years. Hopefully some day he will publish it all. And today let's blow up some myths . There was no Wild Bunch per se. That was invented by the newspapers and magazines of the time fed by the WSGA and Pinkertons.

What there was to begin with a gang in Texas/NM/AZ known as the Ketchum gang. Most of the outlaws we now associate with the WB were not in WY and some came later briefly.

Logan and Currie had a gang in the WY/MT area and also in HIW.

Elzy Lay was NOT part of the WY gangs. He was part of the Ketchum gang and he associated more with them and George Musgrave, Carver, both Ketchum's and the Kilpatrick's.Joe Chancellor was a member and he also was known as Evans.

Let's look at Lay's early career. he was from Utah. He had befriended a young man named William McGuinness. They stole horses from Idaho and southeastern WY then ran them down to Colorado and on into northern AZ on the Mogollon Rim . That is where the Erie and Hashknife ranches were which was made up of Texas cowboys. Then steal more horses and run them back up to WY and idaho. The headquarters for the operation was at the McGuiness ranch in Burnt Fork near Ft Bridger.Later Elzy in NM would take the name McGuiness. This is the area where Sundance may have met Lay and others but not Butch.

Wm Ritchie also ran stolen horses down to AZ . He knew Butch well. And we find Butch after prison going to the same area of AZ to the Erie.He and Elzy plus the mysterious Tom Capehart ended up going to the WS and working for French.

Musgrave was always with the Ketchum gang and later when Elzy got out of prison 1906 Musgrave came and they went to get the loot said to be about $36,000 in old Mexico. Musgrave had an uncle living in Old Mexico (Sonora) just over the border and he would bounce back and forth between US and Mexico and stay at his uncle's ranch. Musgrave and Lay then left for Baggs, WY where they stayed until Lay left 1910 for Thermopolis. By then Musgrave had married Jano and in 1909 was in Colorado and TX then later Brazil.

In the Ft Worth 5 photo the only one who does not belong is Butch. I think the photo was a joke . Butch wasn't a murderer or bank and train robber .He was just a guy who got railroaded by WSGA and never stole any horses. The myth was perpetrated by Torrey and others to give them a reason to do wholesale slaughter of nesters and small ranchers they wanted off the range.

So much of what really happened and who the real outlaws were has never been told. Mostly because it's not sexy and myth driven.

  • re: the hundredth timeBob Goodwin, Thu Dec 21 5:57am
    I agree with Pat. Lay was nowhere close to the Wilcox robbery. He was busy in Cimarron, Ne Mexico with Sam Ketchum, Will Carver, Red Weaver, and probably Joe chancellor planning the Folsom robbery.... more
    • Bob, let's choke this chicken — Pat, Thu Dec 21 9:02am
      • Robert and Harry were long-time friendsBrian Mida Bleecker, Thu Dec 21 7:03pm
        Pat, The New Evidence proves that Robert Parker and Harry Longabaugh were close associates by June of 1889. They likely met in 1885 or 1886 in Southwest Colorado, while Harry lived and worked at his... more
        • No ProofBob Goodwin, Fri Dec 22 5:57am
          Brian, "New Evidence" is no proof at all, just that two random men had their picture taken together in the late 1800s. Nothing on the photo or where it was found gives evidence other than that. Now... more
          • Re: No ProofDaniel Buck, Fri Dec 22 1:21pm
            Bob, as well, the idea that Cassidy and Longabaugh might have met in the 1880s is not "new evidence" either. Donna Ernst first raised the idea 25 years ago, in Sundance My Uncle (1992) and repeated... more
            • Re: No ProofVince Garcia, Fri Dec 22 5:46pm
              "None of this, as you point out, has any real bearing on Brian Meda Bleecker's photograph, which anyone this side of Helen Keller can tell does not depict Cassidy and Sundance. Dan" Haha, for some... more
            • Crook County not Cook.Pat, Fri Dec 22 2:54pm
              Crook Co is in extreme northeast WY on Mt border. Butch was in Fremont Co hundreds of miles away in 1888 .Tax records prove where Butch was at.
              • Re: Crook County not Cook.Daniel Buck, Sat Dec 23 10:39am
                Par, thanks, that was my typo. Is the Fremont tax record 1889 or 1888? Dan
                • Taxes paidPat, Sat Dec 23 10:48am
                  the 1889 tax is listed in 1890 records for previous year. But other records show him listed in Fremont Co in 1888. He had purchased cattle and horses and he also is listed in store receipts for... more
                  • Longabaugh time frames. Mark, Sun Dec 24 9:32am
                    Everything I have read coincides with both Pats and Dans statements. That Cassidy was in Colorado and also in Wyoming during this time period. Possibly rustling and transporting stock back and forth. ... more
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