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Daniel Buck
Re: dan photo
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:46am
108.18.67.120

Vince,
thanks for posting. A couple comment threads below, Juha mentioned Carlos Pero's description of the clothing worn by the bandits, dark red, corduroy travel suits. That led to some discussion here and off-OWR among several colleagues, Mark Mszanski included, about what exactly was a travel suit -- "traje de viaje" -- corduroy fabric, dark red color, and so on.

Turns out, many, many moons ago, 1980s perhaps, Anne Meadows & I had photocopied a couple of dozen men's clothing ads from early 1900s issues of the Buenos Aires weekly Caras y Caretas, thinking the ads might come in handy some day. Now is that day. Some of the ads feature travel and hunting suits, typically suits made of fabrics like canvas, khaki, and corduroy, as opposed to everyday suits, which were typically made of wool, silk, and cashmere. The sketches in some of the ads indicate that Norfolk jackets, or Norfolk suits if one includes the pants in the ensemble, were a type of travel or hunting suit. In other words, the travel suit might be a sack suit, what we think of as a suit style, or a Norfolk.

Carlos Pero was an acute eyewitness, noting the bandits' weapons by models and brand in his two letters to Aramayo officials about the holdup. As well, he described the suits the two men wore by style, fabric, and color. Whether they wore Norfolks we can only speculate. A Norfolk might have been described by genre as a "travel suit," though we would expect the ferret-eyed Pero to have gone one step further and said Norfolk, if that's what he saw. Don't know. For the moment, dark-red, corduroy travel suit will do.

Mark passed along to me yesterday "The Norfolk Jacket Guide," from Gentleman's Gazette, here,
https://www.gentlemansgazette.com/norfolk-jacket-guide/
from which I plucked the closest model I could find to dark red, a colorful russet-orange example from a French tailor. End of story. Dan

  • dan photoVince Garcia, Thu Jan 11 12:50pm
    • Re: dan photo — Daniel Buck, Fri Jan 12 2:46am
      • Re: dan photoVince Garcia, Fri Jan 12 6:31am
        I imagine them wearing something more akin to Clint Eastwood's poncho
        • Re: dan photoDaniel Buck, Fri Jan 12 7:07am
          Vince, a Bolivian colleague reminded me this morning that per San Vicente eyewitness Remigio Sanchez, one of the bandits was wearing "a light-brown cashmere suit, a grey hat, red gaiters" and the... more
          • Re: dan photoVince Garcia, Fri Jan 12 9:27am
            Well, i guess they wanted to be classy looking bandits... Otherwise, I'd think the poncho would be warmer and more practical in the bush
        • Re: dan photoDaniel Buck, Fri Jan 12 6:45am
          Vince, Altiplano ponchos are thick wool and huge, shoulders to mid-shins, I've got two. Comfy as all get out, but heavy and cumbersome to the uninitiated. Most Westerners then and now wear standard... more
    • A red Norfolk Jacket ---Edwardian ? Mark Mszanski, Thu Jan 11 6:08pm
      If they wore suits in 1908 in Bolivia that were dark red - Would they wear Norfolk Jackets ? We are about 8 years out from the end of the Victorian period.... more
      • Playing fashion PlatesChrisV, Fri Jan 12 5:37am
        Mark instead of playing fashion plates, why don't you answer my question and I can go back to playing with my toy railroad.
      • Re: A red Norfolk Jacket ---Edwardian ? Vince Garcia, Thu Jan 11 7:20pm
        I have no idea what the coat is supposed to be
        • Bankers :)Mark Mszanski, Fri Jan 12 11:23am
          Dan and - Vince - It is interesting to get eye witness accounts of the two bandits and what they were wearing - There is detail there - I expect the SEARS catalogue would have been a no starter -... more
          • Re: Bankers :)Daniel Buck, Fri Jan 12 12:18pm
            Mark, Just about any town in Bolivia would had at least one store that sold men's clothing. In Tupiza, there was "Isidoro A. Kohn." In the larger towns and cities, Oruro, Potosi, La Paz, etc., there... more
            • Mostly of British import?Mark Mszanski, Fri Jan 12 1:48pm
              Dan - I suppose it may be hard to tell. I had wondered if the cashmere and or wool was of British import given the influx of Welsh farmers. It seems there was a game plan here or maybe we just want... more
              • Re: Mostly of British import?Daniel Buck, Fri Jan 12 2:14pm
                Mark, yea, gaucho dress is a whole other universe. Lots of photo books on gaucho dress, tho gaucho central was really the pampas, not patagonia, which was not settled until the later 19th century &... more
                • or Courde du Roi?Mark Mszanski, Fri Jan 12 3:58pm
                  Dan - For the French settlers which as a direct french translation would be the Cloth of the King - A stretch - Pero seems to be maniacally focused on detail . Weird they chose red -or Yellow - Not... more
                  • Re: or Courde du Roi?Daniel Buck, Fri Jan 12 5:07pm
                    Mark, He's a good witness; eye for details. Also dark red is not a bright color, and yellow can cover vegetable hues, like English tweedy colors. More research required. Dan
                    • Re: or Courde du Roi?Daniel Buck, Mon Jan 15 6:34am
                      Mark, a Bolivian colleague suggested that yellow could be khaki, which was a fabric in style in the bandits' era for country/hunting/sport suits. Dan
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