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Daniel Buck
Re: Two Mules for Butch and Sundance
Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:25am

thanks. I think, tho, that your numbers on how far a mule/horse can travel in a day are on the low side. On the other hand, terrain and altitude have to be factored in as well. Riding in high, mountainous terrain will decrease daily mileage, but at the same time, provide the mule with an advantage over the horse. That's why mules were so ubiquitous in the Bolivian Andes.

As for the case at hand, the present road from Tupiza to San Vicente is a bit more than 60 miles, Assuming the two Aramayo bandits followed a trail roughly close to the current road, they did 60 miles in two days, leaving Tupiza 5 November & arriving San Vicente early evening 6 November. Thirty miles a day. Not too shabby.

Another way to look at it is that from one point of view the Aramayo bandits' flight succeeded: no pursuing posse from Tupiza caught up with them, or perhaps even knew where they went. What happened was not being overtaken by a posse, but bad luck, the curse of many a bandit, who pursue a profession without much room for error. (As opposed to posting on OWR, where errors have no fatal consequences. If they did, we would have no surviving OWR posters.) One of the posses crisscrossing the region north of Tupiza happened to lodge in San Vicente the afternoon of 5 November, and the two bandits had the bad luck to come into the village later that day. Bad luck, not bad mules.

As for our mule compadres, further reading below, compliments of Dr. Google. Dan

  • Two Mules for Butch and SundanceVince Garcia, Thu Apr 12 2:28am
    Distance can vary by terrain and other factors, but a mule can travel roughly 20 miles per day, and a horse 30. Posses or other riders were known to do 120 miles/day more than once in Butch's time.... more
    • Two Mules for Butch & SundanceSimon Casson, Fri Apr 13 7:23am
      Hi Vince, In short, mules are way better than horses in mountain and canyon country. I won't bore life out of all in this thread by quoting likes of Thomas Moore, Henry Daly, masters of packing and... more
      • Re: Two Mules for Butch & SundanceChrisV, Fri Apr 13 7:38am
        Hi, thanks for your comments. Do you know if they had mules/horses for relay after the Aramayo Robbery? best, Chris
        • Horse-Mule Relays: AndesSimon Casson, Sat Apr 14 12:50am
          Hi Chris, Good question, but doubtful if anyone could definitively answer. Relays always pose a problem. Holding horses. This was the biggest challenge we had, keeping them secure. And hobbles do... more
          • Re: Horse-Mule Relays: AndesChrisV, Sat Apr 14 6:14am
            Hi Simon, Bought the kindle edition yesterday afternoon and finished most of it last night. Well done. Not very many people would do what you did. Im jealous. I was talking to a hand that works for... more
            • Bolivia/Andes/HorsesSimon Casson, Sat Apr 14 8:21am
              Hi Chris, Thanks for buying the kindle version. If you become immersed, get a 2nd edition book - you can pencil notations. The ride was hard graft. Our outfitters helped two Swedes mount a similar... more
              • Re: Bolivia/Andes/HorsesChrisV, Sat Apr 14 1:23pm
                Thanks Simon, Again very jealous of your adventure. Glad to hear you would use a combo of both horses and mules to fit the terrain. As I said earlier, thats what my cowboy buddy said. My kindle... more
            • square peg in round hole exerciseDaniel Buck, Sat Apr 14 7:17am
              Chris, you are trying to pound a square peg in a round hole. And you bring up once again the "if they were smart" angle, i.e, woulda, coulda, shoulda. What we have is what happened, not what we think ... more
              • Re: square peg in round hole exerciseChrisV, Sat Apr 14 11:00am
                You are using the wrong puzzle pieces Dan. All of the info does not add up to it being them. "Crime is an unforgiving business" that is something I do agree with you on. Butch and SK knew that as... more
              • You keep forgetting about GricePat, Sat Apr 14 7:49am
                His partner Tex, and all the other outlaws in the area. Grice did Rio Gallegos and other robberies. He was in Chile with Sundance and said Butch had gone to BA . By 1908 Butch was in Tupezia with... more
                • Re: You keep forgetting about GriceDaniel Buck, Sat Apr 14 10:07am
                  Pat, Herbert Grice as I recall was back in the US by 1906 -- correct? -- thus out of the picture in terms of Bolivia. As for Butch Cassidy being the Englishman Frank Murray or the North American Ray... more
    • Two Mules for Sister Sara.Pat, Thu Apr 12 8:28am
      The song is now in my head . I will try to send Vince my pics from my album to show you what I was doing 30 years ago in Az on the Mogollon. On my ranch I had a variety of animals. But my most... more
      • Re: Two Mules for Sister Sara.Anonymous, Fri Apr 13 7:31am
        Hi Pat, Would love to see pictures of your outfit in the Mogollon country. We loved the ride from the WS into the Blue and cutting through the rim. Damn hard country - as you know! We spoke to many... more
        • SimonPat, Fri Apr 13 11:55am
          How lovely it is to hear from you. As you know I have your first edition of your book with all the crib notes in it. I will try to get those pics out to you . As it know it is very rough on me right... more
          • The BlueSimon Casson, Sat Apr 14 12:42am
            Hi Pat, Thanks for yours. Hoping you're recovering well..?Keeping active will speed progress. Look forward to the pictures. I envy you the mustang. They are so hardy. The Blue Wilderness is another... more
    • Two Mules for Two FoolsChrisV, Thu Apr 12 5:37am
      Vince you act like horses can't do anything. I live in pretty rocky harsh terrain, horses get up the mountain just fine. Let me ask a serious question for Dan. Was the posse that was looking for the... more
      • Horses-Mules: hard countrySimon Casson, Sun Apr 15 5:59am
        Bones was a horse lent by Tom Klumker, an old friend/packer/outfitter from Glenwood - neighbors to the McKeens at the Wilson-Stevens (WS Ranch). A tremendous mare, with huge stamina and an excellent... more
        • Re: Horses-Mules: hard countryChrisV, Sun Apr 15 7:30am
          What a great name lol. Again, I agree mules are great for packing. For riding and specifically escaping, depending on the terrain, a horse would be better in certain situations. best, Chris
      • who is being mulish?Daniel Buck, Thu Apr 12 6:12am
        Chris, Riding a mule in the Bolivian Andes was common for a variety of reasons. Your arguing that Cassidy and Sundance would have been foolish to ride mules in the Andes flies in the face of the... more
      • Re: Two Mules for Two FoolsDaniel Buck, Thu Apr 12 6:00am
        Chris, there were a number of posses looking for the Aramayo bandits, but no information that I recall about what kinds of mounts the members of the posses were riding. Could have been mules, horses, ... more
    • Re: Two Mules for Butch and Sundance — Daniel Buck, Thu Apr 12 4:25am
      • Re: Two Mules for Butch and SundanceDaniel Buck, Sun Apr 15 5:19am
        CORRECTION: "One of the posses crisscrossing the region north of Tupiza happened to lodge in San Vicente the afternoon of 6 November [not 5 November], and the two bandits had the bad luck to come... more
      • Two Mules for Butch and Sundance pt 2Vince Garcia, Thu Apr 12 6:06am
        I like this quote from a page you provided, Mules are steady and more surefooted than their equine counterparts. Mules are dainty steppers and take small, sure footed steps, a quality that is... more
        • Your rightChrisV, Thu Apr 12 6:32am
          Your right on most counts Vince. A mule is a wonderful creature. The only thing you left out is how slow they are compared to a horse. And...saying a horse to a mule is a 2wd to a 4wd is not a good... more
          • I will know soonVince Garcia, Thu Apr 12 5:03pm
            I have an email in to Simon CAsson to ask a rough estimate of his daily riding rate on the bandit trails. Dan can match that against Butch and SD's mule travel rate after the robbery to see how that... more
            • Re: I will know soonAnonymous, Fri Apr 13 7:49am
              Hi Vince, Good question. I'll have to unearth my original notebooks with all the details. We kept a record of costs for many reasons. As the expedition was a human risk, the financials had to be... more
            • Thanks Vince (nm)ChrisV, Thu Apr 12 5:10pm
              • Horses-Mules-MileageSimon Casson, Sat Apr 14 12:59am
                Hi Vince, I found the old OT notepads. Deep in store, with the horse head gear! My answer for those who can't see it on Facebook... " the high country mules are way better. the high Andes... more
          • Re: Your rightDaniel Buck, Thu Apr 12 6:39am
            Chris, if you read up on mules, especially mules in high mountain terrain, you'll find that they are a better choice than horses. That's why horses are preferred in the Kentucky Derby, and mules are... more
            • editing lapse correctedDaniel Buck, Thu Apr 12 6:59am
              if you read up on mules in high mountain terrain, you'll find that they are a better choice than horses. That's why horses are preferred in the Kentucky Derby, and mules are preferred in the Bolivian ... more
              • Re: editing lapse correctedChrisV, Thu Apr 12 7:13am
                Your Ducati example is poor. Both a horse and a mule are capable of climbing rough country. Horses have the advantage of speed if needed
                • on Mount Eerest, the Ducati comes in secondDaniel Buck, Thu Apr 12 7:24am
                  Actually, the Ducati is a great example, faster than all get out, except on certain terrains. On Mount Everest, foot power is preferred, not to mention faster. As well, speed is not an infinite... more
                  • Its a two wheel drive vehicle on a mountain. To say a horse is a two wheel drive animal only meant for speed is stupid. Come out to my ranch and Ill show you what horses can do on a steep mountain.... more
            • Re: Your rightChrisV, Thu Apr 12 6:49am
              There should be a law against horses in the Andes. You might want to contact all the businesses that have horse riding excursions in Bolivia. Tell them immediately to switch to mules. The tourists... more
              • Re: Your rightDaniel Buck, Thu Apr 12 7:06am
                Chris, That's because there are very few mules left in Bolivia. (I've only seen two ever in multiple trips over 50+ years.) Mules were done in by the internal combustion engine. In 1800s and early... more
                • Re: Your rightChrisV, Thu Apr 12 7:15am
                  Add up all the other evidence and the two fools on mules was not Butch and Sundance.
      • correctionDaniel Buck, Thu Apr 12 4:31am
        CORRECTION: the posse arrived in San Vicente the afternoon of 6 November 1908, not 5 November.
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