Daniel Buck
Re: Ryan's Handwriting Two Weeks Apart
Wed Aug 29, 2018 1:06pm

That is correct. not even one's own signatures are necessarily identical. One of the basic principles of handwriting is that it varies, even within the same document and among different documents in the same time period. And it varies with the occasion, the writing instruments, and, most obviously, over time.

This, from the FBI, is helpful:


"No one person writes exactly the same way, even within several repetitions of writings. This is known as natural variation, or intra-writer variation, and represents the second principle of handwriting analysis.

"Human beings are not capable of machine-like precision and repetition. As a result of the neuromuscular process, some variation in style (formation) is expected. Variation is an integral part of an individualís writing. It describes the changes and deviations, often minute, that are found in repeated samples of one personís writing. More specifically, variation refers to the different way(s) that a writer makes each letter or character. This variation is normal and serves as an added factor to personalize and individualize writing. As Figure 4 demonstrates, natural variation in an individualís writing prevents superimposed samples by the same individual from aligning perfectly."

  • Re: Ryan's Handwriting Two Weeks ApartDeborah, Wed Aug 29 12:00pm
    They look basically the same. Gibbon more than Dan. My signature is absolutely never identical. Especially as I grow older.
    • The Two Full DocumentsChrisV, Wed Aug 29 4:13pm
      Study them. Look at the crazy loops in the May document. Look like something Ryan would do? Compare the words "to" and "the" They do not look like the other documents. Theres more, but ill let you... more
      • Re: The Two Full DocumentsChrisV, Wed Aug 29 4:14pm
        Pics from Leaving Cholila Buck and Meadows
        • Habitual FormationsChrisV, Wed Aug 29 5:51pm
          Comparing the May 1, 1905 document's word "to" to the Aug 1902 document's word "to" Seems the person writing "to" in the May doc. is confused. Only writes "to" twice, but neither comes close to... more
          • Wyo State Archives Butch Sig.ChrisV, Thu Aug 30 5:14am
            For people who haven't seen. Butch's signature at the Wy State Archives. IMO authentic.
    • Re: Ryan's Handwriting Two Weeks Apartvince garcia, Wed Aug 29 2:26pm
      That was my initial thought but it would be wrong to dismiss Chris' point out of hand. While they look similar in some ways overall to me as well, clearly there are also noteworthiness differences.... more
      • graphologist vs. questioned document examinerDaniel Buck, Wed Aug 29 3:48pm
        Vince, no one is dismissing anyone's point out of hand -- heaven help us, this is OWR after all -- but I did get a serious chuckle out of attempts to balloon cherry-picked handwriting variations... more
        • Re: graphologist vs. questioned document examinervince garcia, Wed Aug 29 4:58pm
          But again--they do look reasonably close overall. So I would ask: What do the rest of the documents look like for comparison? Do both docs have a lot of questionable penmanship, or is the sig the... more
          • Vince, I have to say you are making sense. I agree pretty much with everything you just said. If you don't have the other documents I can email them to you. They all for the most part look similar at ... more
            • Re: graphologist vs. questioned document examinervince garcia, Wed Aug 29 6:38pm
              No, my eyes are so bad and me so unqualified I don't think I could judge intelligently. I did look at the photos you posted and thought, again, they looked similar at a glance but not necessarily in... more
              • Gotcha I, you, and others, just want history to be as factual as possible. The owner of the published documents needs to be responsible and have them analyzed. We want history to be as factual as... more
        • Re: graphologist vs. questioned document examinervince garcia, Wed Aug 29 4:53pm
          I forget or don't know what the term is for a handwriting expert. But you get what I mean My concern is based on having seen quite a bit of episodes of PAWN STARS where they bring in the autograph... more
          • But these aren't autographs.
            • autographs vs. signaturesDaniel Buck, Thu Aug 30 3:35am
              Deborah, good observation, the difference between autographs and signatures, though the words are often informally used interchangeably. Pawn Stars, which I watch occasionally, is of course a... more
            • Re: graphologist vs. questioned document examinervince garcia, Thu Aug 30 3:30am
              Yes they are. They're signatures. Same exact thing.
              • When I visit an elderly friend in the nursing home where she lives I must sign in at the desk before my visit. In no way is my style of writing signing a check for example, the same as my sign-in... more
              • I agree (nm)ChrisV, Thu Aug 30 4:13am
              • yes & noDaniel Buck, Thu Aug 30 3:44am
                Vince, our posts crossed in the Internet, so to speak. Are autographs signatures; are signatures autographs? The correct answer is, as in so many cases, yes and no. They each represent a person's... more
                • Re: yes & noDeborah, Thu Aug 30 10:19am
                • Expert in EverythingChrisV, Thu Aug 30 4:46am
                  Dan is the only person on earth who is an expert in everything, yet cant answer simple questions about the Wild Bunch. Why did you debunk the Santiago Ryan signature (chestnut stallion receipt ) ?
        • You don't know what the point is......Really? Go back and read my posts. Ill spell it out for you since your slow. These documents are not done by the same person. Want to prove me wrong? Hire... more
          • let's not have kittens, bad for the health (nm)Daniel Buck, Wed Aug 29 4:03pm
            • kittens scratchneglib, Wed Aug 29 4:47pm
              Dan, Chris has a good points that makes me chuckle too. Heaven forbid for inquiry. Address his points rather than replying with a non-answer and then we all can learn and move on. Regards, Brett
            • Clever comebackChrisV, Wed Aug 29 4:17pm
              Thats right come up with a clever comeback and runaway. Id spend my time trying to explain myself
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