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Bob Goodwin
Cabin Chris and the Railroad Workers
Mon Sep 10, 2018 9:08am

Chris, I have found the discussions recently concerning signatures, cabins, photos in South America all very entertaining, but shouldn't you be concerned with trying to document what your think is Butch in the US in 1901 rather than trying to disprove whatever you are trying to disprove in South America. Better to "prove," or rather, document Butch in the U.S. in 1901 than to try and "prove" that he wasn't in SA in 1901. Basically you cannot "prove" that someone did not do something, or was not somewhere. But what you can do is "prove," or rather document, that someone was someplace, or did do something. That, in and of itself indicates that they were not somewhere else.

All that being said, shouldn't you be more concerned with documenting. Butch in Sanpete County, Utah in 1901 than trashing supposed documents from South America? Your connection with Sanpete County is really thin. Some guy in Mt. Pleasant that hung out a sign that said "Butch slept here" is not much in the way of documentation, or is some drunken deputy in 1905 saying he saw Butch. I think you should be more concerned with firming up your own research. If you can "prove your point" in Indianola then the South American evidence irrelevant.

    • More for the sheepChrisV, Mon Sep 10 8:07pm
      Butch and Sundance in front of "their Cholila cabin"...AKA Jinentes photo, Riders photo and so on.....There was about a one inch difference in Butch and SK height. Butch 5'9 Sundance roughly 5'10.... more
      • Butch's chin for sure!Juha, Wed Sep 19 8:43am
      • Provenance QuestionBob Goodwin, Tue Sep 11 6:01am
        Since we are back to the cabin photos, and whether the are genuine Cassidy photos or not, I have a question on provenance on both photos. Well, my question is, what is the full provenance for both of ... more
        • Re: Provenance QuestionDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 10:24am
          Bob, It would be nice if the two photos in question, Tea Party and jinetes, had been embedded with microchips at the time they were taken, with all the pertinent details of their making, and as well... more
          • CabinsChrisV, Tue Sep 11 11:03am
            The Longabaugh/Ernst/Hallman family owns the Tea Party Photo? You said in another thread that there is only copy of the photo and it is in poor shape. Is it in the care of the Longabaughs? You have... more
        • We all want and need to know,Pat, Tue Sep 11 7:45am
          and how did Mccubbin get them? is the date on ridres photo 08 or 09 ?
        • Good QuestionsChrisV, Tue Sep 11 6:41am
          Anyone who answers should cite their sources and be able to prove it.
      • The supposed photo proof is also wrong Mark A Mszanski, Mon Sep 10 9:41pm
        Chris - Isolating BC and SK is a nice trick - But when one views the whole photograph in context it is quickly apparent that the photographer is off center and standing at at an angle closer to... more
        • ask the pilotChrisV, Tue Sep 11 5:04am
          "Etta Place is almost as tall as Butch - LOL -" according to Mark* Going to have to disagree with you on that one
        • ExcusesChrisV, Tue Sep 11 4:20am
          Mark*, Stick with flying buddy. The pilot does all the thinking and you can just sit there and look important. No tricks. "Etta" is to the right of him. Ill say she is behind him a little, but... more
          • perspective & manipulationDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 5:05am
            Chris, Compounding the perspective issues, you've manipulated the jinetes details. You can't just pluck out of a photograph people standing along a perhaps 40 to 50 foot angled line, with at least... more
            • Re: perspective & manipulationChrisV, Tue Sep 11 5:15am
              You think Im doing this on purpose? To deceive? No buddy. Im not like that. I sincerely am looking for the truth. I thought the Riders photo was legit, but am beginning to wonder who is in the photo. ... more
              • Purpose and disclosure mark, Wed Sep 12 4:21am
                Your not doing this on purpose. Ok. But your trying to make a case without looking at the photo in its entirety. Your hypothesis is flawed as a result. Your making a case without context. Again,... more
                • CabinsChrisV, Wed Sep 12 5:03am
                  For the record, I am not an expert in photography. I was pointing something out. Take it for what you will. Etta who is next to SK is much shorter than she should be. She is also not the same size as ... more
                  • The Cabin and it's growthBob Goodwin, Wed Sep 12 6:05am
                    Initially I have believed that the Jinetes photo of the riders, and the Tea Party photos were taken on opposite sides of the cabin. That is not so. They were both taken on the same side of the cabin! ... more
                  • Sundance, Giant of a manBob Goodwin, Wed Sep 12 5:33am
                    For the record I am not a photo expert either, you did point out something that looked puzzling. From looking at the photo for many minutes, and examining it. It does have perspective problems as... more
              • hmm, changing the subjectDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 5:33am
                Chris, whether the jinetes details were manipulated on purpose or out of ignorance about perspective, scale, etc., is a separate issue, but they were manipulated. In simpler terms, we are back to... more
                • Re: hmm, changing the subjectChrisV, Tue Sep 11 5:49am
                  Expected as much....Id have a lot more respect for you if you admitted the Tea Party cabin is not their cabin.
                  • Lumpy VoorheesMark, Tue Sep 11 1:05pm
                    Always wrong never in doubt. Try not to argue things you dont understand to begin with.
        • perspective & the eyeDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 3:40am
          Mark, good point, perspective plays all sorts of tricks with the eye. Come to think of it, so does 100 years of wind, rain, snow & sun, not to mention wear & tear, renovations & additions, on a... more
          • The Jones and Ernst familiesMark, Wed Sep 12 1:37am
            The provenance of these photos have long been established. I believe this has been covered about 200 times here on OWR and memorialized in research by many authors. I am very comfortable with the... more
          • Dan's Tea PartyChrisV, Tue Sep 11 4:45am
            You never answered my questions about the tea party cabin. Your story doesn't make sense. Its time you admit its not the same cabin
            • Re: Dan's Tea PartyDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 5:10am
              Chris, here was my post: ============================== Chris, Let's start at the beginning. You are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing the early 1900s Wild Bunch cabin with an early... more
              • GeezChrisV, Tue Sep 11 5:43am
                Dan, It is not their cabin. Its much shorter than the Cholila cabin and has many other inconsistencies. Chris
                • Back to my Provenance QuestionBob Goodwin, Tue Sep 11 6:52am
                  Back to my provenance question, if it can be established that it actually came from Sundance, like Sundance sent it to his parents with a note on the back that said something like "Hey Mon and Dad,... more
                  • Re: Back to my Provenance QuestionDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 7:58am
                    Bob, Ha. Dream on, my friend Even if Butch, Sundance & Ethel jumped out of the photo singing "Down Cholila Way," the dead enders would still balk. It's a blood sport, not a history discussion. Dan
                  • Re: Back to my Provenance QuestionChrisV, Tue Sep 11 7:03am
                    Im going to disagree. I don't care if there is provenance with the Tea Party photo, the cabin is not theirs. Could be them, its yet to be seen, but the cabin is not theirs. "All of the accusation... more
    • RE: Cabin Chris and Railroad Workersneglib, Mon Sep 10 11:32am
      Bob, Chris and I have presented some of our findings of BC and SK in1901 that does not involve SOAM. Take, for instance, the man standing in the RR pic that some claim is Butch. The Butch in the RR... more
      • RE: Cabin Chris and Railroad Workersjim lynch, Mon Sep 10 5:22pm
        As one that actually believe it is most likely that Butch and Etta made it out alive, I still haven't seen evidence other than grainy photos, and memories of family and friends that makes me an out... more
      • baa baa baa baaChrisV, Mon Sep 10 4:43pm
        These guys are a bunch of sheep. They're too afraid to disagree with the flock. Back to the Tea Party photo, Dan wrote "Only one copy of the tea party photo is known to exist, in poor condition I am... more
    • Sounds too reasonable Bob (nm)jim lynch, Mon Sep 10 11:02am
      • WrongPat, Mon Sep 10 11:09am
        Because Chris can't prove his Utah connection does not mean the rest of us cannot challenge the SA info.
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