Lease this WebApp and get rid of the ads.
Bob Goodwin
Provenance Question
Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:01am

Since we are back to the cabin photos, and whether the are genuine Cassidy photos or not, I have a question on provenance on both photos. Well, my question is, what is the full provenance for both of the photos, and what are we dealing with here. It seems to me that we are dealing with third or fourth generation copies of copies of the original photos. I have read what Anne wrote in "Digging up" and what Donna wrote in her book about where they came from, but all accounts are incomplete.

I think all of the readers here on OWR would like to know, completely explained so we all understand where we are coming from and what we are talking about.

First of all, for the Tea Party photo:
Who, if we know took the photo?
Was it taken with a new Kodak, or what kind of camera?
What was the original size of the photo?
How did it get from South America to the Longabaugh family?
When was it sent?
Who were the Joneses?
Who was the photo sent to? Samanna?, someone else?
How did it get from Samanna to Bill Hallman?, who had it in between?
Who has the original now? and how did they get it or Was it destroyed as Bill said he would do?
How did Donna get her copy? Was her's a photo copy, or a print made from the original?
Was there any writing associated with it, on the back or in a separate letter explaining who it was of and when taken. etc

In other words What is the full story on the photo. If all these questions can be answered and a chain of possession can be established, and the people in the photo were identified by the taker or sender as Butch, Sundance, and Etta, then, no matter how bad the resolution is, we must go with what was said on the photo by the people who originally took it, or had possession of it.

For the "Riders" photo at Chris calls it
Who took it?
Where did it com from?
It looks to be in three pieces?
Were they sent to the family as post cards?
If so, what was written on them?
Plus all of the questions above?

Anyone have it all?
I think I remember Dan, or someone writing an article on the photos, but the explanations were incomplete as I remember..

  • More for the sheepChrisV, Mon Sep 10 8:07pm
    Butch and Sundance in front of "their Cholila cabin"...AKA Jinentes photo, Riders photo and so on.....There was about a one inch difference in Butch and SK height. Butch 5'9 Sundance roughly 5'10.... more
    • Provenance Question — Bob Goodwin, Tue Sep 11 6:01am
      • Re: Provenance QuestionDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 10:24am
        Bob, It would be nice if the two photos in question, Tea Party and jinetes, had been embedded with microchips at the time they were taken, with all the pertinent details of their making, and as well... more
        • CabinsChrisV, Tue Sep 11 11:03am
          The Longabaugh/Ernst/Hallman family owns the Tea Party Photo? You said in another thread that there is only copy of the photo and it is in poor shape. Is it in the care of the Longabaughs? You have... more
      • We all want and need to know,Pat, Tue Sep 11 7:45am
        and how did Mccubbin get them? is the date on ridres photo 08 or 09 ?
      • Good QuestionsChrisV, Tue Sep 11 6:41am
        Anyone who answers should cite their sources and be able to prove it.
    • The supposed photo proof is also wrong Mark A Mszanski, Mon Sep 10 9:41pm
      Chris - Isolating BC and SK is a nice trick - But when one views the whole photograph in context it is quickly apparent that the photographer is off center and standing at at an angle closer to... more
      • ask the pilotChrisV, Tue Sep 11 5:04am
        "Etta Place is almost as tall as Butch - LOL -" according to Mark* Going to have to disagree with you on that one
      • ExcusesChrisV, Tue Sep 11 4:20am
        Mark*, Stick with flying buddy. The pilot does all the thinking and you can just sit there and look important. No tricks. "Etta" is to the right of him. Ill say she is behind him a little, but... more
        • perspective & manipulationDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 5:05am
          Chris, Compounding the perspective issues, you've manipulated the jinetes details. You can't just pluck out of a photograph people standing along a perhaps 40 to 50 foot angled line, with at least... more
          • Re: perspective & manipulationChrisV, Tue Sep 11 5:15am
            You think Im doing this on purpose? To deceive? No buddy. Im not like that. I sincerely am looking for the truth. I thought the Riders photo was legit, but am beginning to wonder who is in the photo. ... more
            • Purpose and disclosure mark, Wed Sep 12 4:21am
              Your not doing this on purpose. Ok. But your trying to make a case without looking at the photo in its entirety. Your hypothesis is flawed as a result. Your making a case without context. Again,... more
              • CabinsChrisV, Wed Sep 12 5:03am
                For the record, I am not an expert in photography. I was pointing something out. Take it for what you will. Etta who is next to SK is much shorter than she should be. She is also not the same size as ... more
                • The Cabin and it's growthBob Goodwin, Wed Sep 12 6:05am
                  Initially I have believed that the Jinetes photo of the riders, and the Tea Party photos were taken on opposite sides of the cabin. That is not so. They were both taken on the same side of the cabin! ... more
                  • I give you creditChrisV, Fri Sep 14 5:08am
                    Its good to see someone on here not being a sheep. Bob obviously sees theres a problem with the Tea Party cabin and tried to figure it out instead of just going with the flock. Thanks Bob. I think... more
                  • Bachelor pad Mark, Thu Sep 13 12:14am
                    Bob. Pretty neat. Thanks for this. No idea that Butch had his own little pad. On additions, it is not unreasonable to assume they made mods as time went on. Thanks for this.
                  • Re: The Cabin and it's growthDaniel Buck, Wed Sep 12 8:26am
                    Bob, your observation is a welcome reminder of what we do not know, or to go full Rumsfeld, what we don't know we don't know. The two photographs represent but two brief moments in the BC&SK&EP... more
                    • Re:Bob Goodwin, Thu Sep 13 6:05am
                      Dan, I agree, The length between the two windows on the front side of the cabin, unless there is some perspective problem in the photo, is much too close. However, the back of the cabin presents even ... more
                    • Good Morning DanChrisV, Thu Sep 13 4:55am
                      Ill accept your silence as you've finally come to your senses and realized its impossible for that cabin to be the Cholila cabin. Look on the bright side, the three individuals haven't been debunked... more
                    • SilenceChrisV, Wed Sep 12 2:50pm
                      Come on Dan. Your supposed to be a witty guy. Please explain how its possible the Tea Party is the Cholila cabin.
                    • Re: The Cabin and it's growthChrisV, Wed Sep 12 10:56am
                      Without this becoming a blood sport as you called it, please explain how the Tea Party photo is the westside of the Cholila cabin. Anyone can see it is too short and has the problems that I explained ... more
                  • Re: The Cabin and it's growthvince garcia, Wed Sep 12 7:52am
                    Wait, bob--when you say they added a new bedroom, wouldn't that have been Butch;'s bedroom? Might the small shack have been for the ranch hands or Wenceslao Solis?
                    • Re:Bob Goodwin, Thu Sep 13 6:36am
                      Vince, according to the Sepulvedas and Gavirati the other cabin was where Butch lived. There were other buildings on the site in addition to just the two buildings.
                  • Re: The Cabin and it's growthChrisV, Wed Sep 12 6:58am
                    Looking at the shadows, wouldn't that have the sun coming out of the north?
                    • Re: The Cabin and it's growthChrisV, Wed Sep 12 7:16am
                      shadows in both Tea party and jinentes pointing in same direction, so must not be north. I stand corrected. Measure the Tea Party length. Take away the section you are talking about in the Jinentes... more
                • Sundance, Giant of a manBob Goodwin, Wed Sep 12 5:33am
                  For the record I am not a photo expert either, you did point out something that looked puzzling. From looking at the photo for many minutes, and examining it. It does have perspective problems as... more
                  • Re: Sundance, Giant of a manDaniel Buck, Wed Sep 12 5:48am
                    Perspective distortion & other photographic headaches. Not only is EP behind and to SK's left, BC is way off to SK's right.
            • hmm, changing the subjectDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 5:33am
              Chris, whether the jinetes details were manipulated on purpose or out of ignorance about perspective, scale, etc., is a separate issue, but they were manipulated. In simpler terms, we are back to... more
              • Re: hmm, changing the subjectChrisV, Tue Sep 11 5:49am
                Expected as much....Id have a lot more respect for you if you admitted the Tea Party cabin is not their cabin.
                • Lumpy VoorheesMark, Tue Sep 11 1:05pm
                  Always wrong never in doubt. Try not to argue things you dont understand to begin with.
      • perspective & the eyeDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 3:40am
        Mark, good point, perspective plays all sorts of tricks with the eye. Come to think of it, so does 100 years of wind, rain, snow & sun, not to mention wear & tear, renovations & additions, on a... more
        • The Jones and Ernst familiesMark, Wed Sep 12 1:37am
          The provenance of these photos have long been established. I believe this has been covered about 200 times here on OWR and memorialized in research by many authors. I am very comfortable with the... more
        • Dan's Tea PartyChrisV, Tue Sep 11 4:45am
          You never answered my questions about the tea party cabin. Your story doesn't make sense. Its time you admit its not the same cabin
          • Re: Dan's Tea PartyDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 5:10am
            Chris, here was my post: ============================== Chris, Let's start at the beginning. You are comparing apples and oranges. You are comparing the early 1900s Wild Bunch cabin with an early... more
            • GeezChrisV, Tue Sep 11 5:43am
              Dan, It is not their cabin. Its much shorter than the Cholila cabin and has many other inconsistencies. Chris
              • Back to my Provenance QuestionBob Goodwin, Tue Sep 11 6:52am
                Back to my provenance question, if it can be established that it actually came from Sundance, like Sundance sent it to his parents with a note on the back that said something like "Hey Mon and Dad,... more
                • Re: Back to my Provenance QuestionDaniel Buck, Tue Sep 11 7:58am
                  Bob, Ha. Dream on, my friend Even if Butch, Sundance & Ethel jumped out of the photo singing "Down Cholila Way," the dead enders would still balk. It's a blood sport, not a history discussion. Dan
                • Re: Back to my Provenance QuestionChrisV, Tue Sep 11 7:03am
                  Im going to disagree. I don't care if there is provenance with the Tea Party photo, the cabin is not theirs. Could be them, its yet to be seen, but the cabin is not theirs. "All of the accusation... more
                  • JeezeBob Goodwin, Wed Sep 12 6:36am
                    I said: "accusation back and forth of manipulation." Isn't that what You Dan and Mark have been doing, accusing each other of manipulation: I was just making an observation. I was not trying to be... more
Click here to receive daily updates