vince garcia
Their positions in the doorway
Sun Apr 14, 2019 12:55pm
2001:558:6012:3e:4950:9a30:b161:98b0

This isn’t 100% certain, but having watched enough ID TV and forensic shows, I conclude Butch was on the left side of the door, and SD on the right as they shot it out. It appears that Butch filled the doorway, taking the first shot at Victor Torres, who got one off (probably hit him) as he took a slug, then Butch continued laterally to the left to continue firing, as SD took up position on the right side, opening fire from HIS position. The right side of the door being less preferable to shoot from and requiring SD to lean further out and expose himself could account for his taking several hits compared to Butch’s one.
Butch, meanwhile, would be able to fire more easily from more cover and less exposure from the left side, and so he took only the single hit, probably from Torres’ reactive shot at the beginning.

    • Butch and Sundance did not die in SANicholas, Tue Apr 16 4:09pm
      I will go on record as saying that Butch nor Sundance died anywhere South America. It was 2 other North American bandits/outlaws. The events, however they are described, may be accurate but did not... more
      • Finally, Someone ThinkingChrisV, Tue Apr 16 4:18pm
        I agree. If you do the research: the description of dead robbers doesn't match up the robbery techniques used by the bandits doesn't match up the skeletons match perfectly to the description of the... more
        • Re: Finally, Someone ThinkingDaniel Buck, Wed Apr 17 3:27am
          The tests ultimately determined that only one set of Caucasoid bones came out of the 1991 dig, the rest were indigenous. The Caucasoid bones were inside the remains of a wooden coffin with a glass... more
          • You Sure?ChrisV, Wed Apr 17 7:15am
            Heres a post awhile back from Collin on Gustav "Dan- Now you know this is what I mean! Your presentation (admittedly through your wife's book) of the identification of the bodies (one nearly complete ... more
            • Re: You Sure?Daniel Buck, Wed Apr 17 7:59am
              Not sure how Colin Taylor's rather speculative, "I have heard," post bears on all of this. We dug up one Caucasoid, not two. The one we dug up was presumably Gustav Zimmer, since he was in a wooden... more
              • At least two. Nicholas, Wed Apr 17 4:09pm
                At least two. Butch and Sundance are not there. Butch was all over the west post this shootout and any other shoot out in South America that he has been linked to. He visited his sister, family,... more
    • Re: Their positions in the doorwayDaniel Buck, Mon Apr 15 8:53am
      Vince, not a bad surmise as to why Cassidy had only one arm wound and Sundance several. Per the Judicial Inquest, in the initial return volley the men in the patio got off four shots, one from the... more
      • Re: Their positions in the doorwayAnonymous, Mon Apr 15 6:08pm
        Hello all, this is my first post on the board. That is a good supposition on the shoot out and the wounds received by the outlaws. I've been curious about this because it seems the shooting didn't... more
        • Re: Their positions in the doorwayDaniel Buck, Tue Apr 16 3:52am
          Dave, thanks, good observations and questions. If you punch "Mauser" into the OWR search box, up will come two threads, the first in November 2012 and the second in November 2016, on the subject of... more
          • Re: Their positions in the doorwayAnonymous, Tue Apr 16 4:37pm
            Thanks Dan & Vince for the replies, I did search for Mauser as you suggested and read some of the posts. Here is my two pesos worth of opinion on the gunfight in SV. I can't imagine BC shooting SD in ... more
            • Re: Their positions in the doorwayDaniel Buck, Tue Apr 16 6:50pm
              Dave, a couple of comments. Per the A.G. Francis account, the bandits told him the were heading for "Uyuni and the north again" -- perhaps Oruro. As I recall, per the Judicial Inquest report, en... more
            • Re: Their positions in the doorwayvince garcia, Tue Apr 16 5:10pm
              DAve--that is correct, they did not speak English. But they could tell it was heated enough to call it an argument, and SD was allegedly found holding an urn in a position indicating he was trying to ... more
              • Re: Their positions in the doorwaydave c, Wed Apr 17 4:00pm
                Vince, in the end it's all just theory because we don't know what really happened in that room. Your theory is as good as anyone's, but I don't think I've ever heard of the bandits arguing in SV, in... more
                • Re: Their positions in the doorwayvince garcia, Wed Apr 17 5:04pm
                  "Arguing" may be my word for what was reported. Cleto Bello talked about desperate screams and I thought the soldiers talked about them shouting at each other but couldn't understand the language,... more
                  • Re: Their positions in the doorwayDaniel Buck, Wed Apr 17 6:51pm
                    Vince, do not refer to my memory, which of late has become foggy. I have to go back to what Anne wrote or, if I have the time, the Judicial inquest itself. Meadows (2003), p. 267, quoting Cleo Bellot ... more
        • Re: Their positions in the doorwayvince garcia, Mon Apr 15 7:28pm
          Welcome dave. Highly unlikely SD was shot in the head by the Bolivians. They claim they heard them arguing, then two shots, which tells me that Butch cursed SD for getting them into the situation... more
          • Re: Their positions in the doorwayAnonymous, Thu Apr 18 3:23pm
            Okay, I've always had a hard time picturing this, but Sundance was sitting or laying on a bench behind a jug. Is that correct?
            • Re: Their positions in the doorwayDaniel Buck, Fri Apr 19 6:24am
              That's essentially it. The End of the Road; Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in Bolivia (English Westerners's Society, London, 2017), Daniel Buck & Anne Meadows: "sitting on a bench behind the... more
              • Re: Their positions in the doorwayChrisV, Fri Apr 19 8:06am
                I checked up on your dynamite theory. Dynamite can have small amounts of copper used as stabilizer. It depends on what they choose to use. It also sounds more of a modern technique. Back in the early ... more
                • Re: Their positions in the doorwayDaniel Buck, Fri Apr 19 10:01am
                  The basic point here is that the man we dug up is most likely a miner named Gustav Zimmer, not one of the bandits. Not likely the villagers would have buried one of the unidentified bandits in a... more
          • Re: Their positions in the doorwayDaniel Buck, Tue Apr 16 3:54am
            Vince, Good point. I had forgotten about the argument. One of these days I should reread the Judicial Inquest from start to finish. Dan
            • Re: Their positions in the doorwayvince garcia, Tue Apr 16 5:54am
              I'd still like someone to check the church records with the authorities over that area in la paz or wherever
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