Cathy Spude
Tanner Revolver
Sun Nov 6, 2011 10:00am
67.0.13.19
Can I ask you politely not to revive the old argument about who said what to who about the Tanner revolver? I think it will just cause a fight again. Let's move on from there.
I will state plainly here that I am willing to concede that it probably never belonged to Soapy. The Tanner family firmly believes that it was given to Tanner by the people of Skagway in appreciation for his role in rounding up the gang. Their family tradition is strong evidence for me, just as a great deal of the family tradition about Soapy is strong evidence for you about Soapy's deeds. The fancy inscription on the gun, "J. M. Tanner, U.S. Deputy Marshall" supports this family inscription. As I have studied Harriet Pullen, I have come to believe that once she got ownership of the gun, she embellished the story, and gave it some background it may not have had. She added the "PULLEN" and "SOAPY" inscriptions in order to own something that "belonged" to Soapy. In my view, Pullen was one of the greatest legend-makers of them all, and she wanted to be part of the legend.
I point out in my book that the 1900 census shows that Harriet did not go to Skagway until September 1898. The stories she told about herself being there in the fall of 1897 are the duplicates of Annie Leonard, who worked for William Moore. These stories are available in the Skagway Townsite files, and Harriet no doubt heard them, then put herself into them. She later put herself into the Soapy story, and continued to elaborate and change that. However, in 1900, when the census-taker came around, she didn't realize that she would want to be the Soapy legend-maker, so she didn't know she would have to lie about when she came to Skagway. She told the truth that she had come to Skagway in September 1898, too late to be a witness to the shooting.
Cathy
I will state plainly here that I am willing to concede that it probably never belonged to Soapy. The Tanner family firmly believes that it was given to Tanner by the people of Skagway in appreciation for his role in rounding up the gang. Their family tradition is strong evidence for me, just as a great deal of the family tradition about Soapy is strong evidence for you about Soapy's deeds. The fancy inscription on the gun, "J. M. Tanner, U.S. Deputy Marshall" supports this family inscription. As I have studied Harriet Pullen, I have come to believe that once she got ownership of the gun, she embellished the story, and gave it some background it may not have had. She added the "PULLEN" and "SOAPY" inscriptions in order to own something that "belonged" to Soapy. In my view, Pullen was one of the greatest legend-makers of them all, and she wanted to be part of the legend.
I point out in my book that the 1900 census shows that Harriet did not go to Skagway until September 1898. The stories she told about herself being there in the fall of 1897 are the duplicates of Annie Leonard, who worked for William Moore. These stories are available in the Skagway Townsite files, and Harriet no doubt heard them, then put herself into them. She later put herself into the Soapy story, and continued to elaborate and change that. However, in 1900, when the census-taker came around, she didn't realize that she would want to be the Soapy legend-maker, so she didn't know she would have to lie about when she came to Skagway. She told the truth that she had come to Skagway in September 1898, too late to be a witness to the shooting.
Cathy
- Soapy's derringer — Cathy Spude, Wed Oct 26 3:43pmJeff: I was going through the Rev. John Sinclair's papers from the British Columbia Archives for another project, and came across a certificate signed by Commissioner Charles A. Sehlbrede certifying... more
- Sinclair's derringer — Jeff Smith, Thu Oct 27 6:49pmCathy, I do not believe that the derringer given to Rev. John Sinclair was Soapy's for several good and logical reasons. I covered the incident of Sinclair receiving a derringer from Attorney and... more
- Murphy as murderer — Cathy Spude, Sat Oct 29 9:09amOkay, its a complicated subject that takes up more than a chapter in my book, but here's a quick preview. Remember, you asked for it. I review both versions of what happened: the theory that Frank... more
- Murphy is murderer — Jeff Smith, Sat Oct 29 11:19pmCathy, first let me say that this sort of discussion is what I have wanted for so long. Soapy deserves it as his history is so far more interesting than most of the historical old west characters of... more
- Soapy's Legend — Cathy Spude, Wed Nov 2 10:27amI am interested in legend because I am an anthropologist before I am a historian. I understand that myth influences popular understanding of fact and can so warp the way people "remember" events that ... more
- Legend Vs. History — Jeff Smith, Wed Nov 2 11:44pmYou wrote, "I understand that myth influences popular understanding of fact and can so warp the way people "remember" events that fact and legend very quickly become merged. The bigger the legend,... more
- Particularism vs. Contextualism — Cathy Spude, Fri Nov 4 1:51pmAh, maybe now I'm beginning to understand some of the basic roots of our inability to speak the same language. You see facts and history as identical: facts being the puzzle pieces that create the... more
- Re: Particularism vs. Contextualism — Jeff Smith, Sat Nov 5 12:41amCathy, I don't believe you understand me as much as you think you do. I do not, as you say, see facts and history as identical. In our conversations we are discussing Skagway and Soapy Smith history. ... more
- Missing the point — Cathy Spude, Sat Nov 5 9:47amAh, yes, I think you may deliberately either gloss over or deliberately miss my point. I do NOT use the dictionary definitions of myth and legend in my book. As I said before, I use definitions taken ... more
- Am I really missing the point? — Jeff Smith, Sat Nov 5 1:13pmHi, Cathy. You wrote, "Ah, yes, I think you may deliberately either gloss over or deliberately miss my point. I do NOT use the dictionary definitions of myth and legend in my book. As I said before,... more
- Chris Shea — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 6:10pmIt looks like my earlier answer to your inquiry about an electronic copy of my Chris Shea piece got lost in that long answer I wrote early this morning that disappeared in the ethernet. I don't have... more
- No copies? — Jeff Smith, Mon Nov 7 10:04amCathy, you don't keep copies of your work? Man, I do. Having things on Word with its "find" tool, for instance, makes finding answers for questions a breeze. Jeff Smith
- Shea piece on PDF — Cathy Spude, Mon Nov 7 1:06pmPNQ wanted to work in hard copy after it got to a certain stage in the editing process, as do most magazines, books and journals. The best I have is an electronic copy of a final draft. And, like I... more
- Where to start? — Cathy Spude, Sat Nov 5 6:50pmPoint 1: Academic discussions. I got a Doctorate in Philosophy with a specialty in Anthropology. One of the things such a degree confirms upon its recipient is give one license to engage in academic... more
- At the beginning... — Jeff Smith, Sun Nov 6 1:18pmI congratulate you on obtaining your degree. I do not disrespect that, however, your degree does not come with the right to change definitions form the acclaimed Oxford dictionary. In the long run... more
- Haigh's dissertation — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 3:59pmMy point about Jane Haigh's dissertation goes back to your earlier assertion that you had grounded yourself in the political context the times. Then you say you have not read Jane's dissertation. I... more
- Backwards Haigh worked — Jeff Smith, Mon Nov 7 10:00amOne more bit on Jane Haigh. I reviewed Jane's book, King Con: The Story of Soapy Smith . It is filled with errors throughout and no new information. She published, and THEN decided to do the research ... more
- A little respect please... — Jeff Smith, Sun Nov 6 7:14pmRecently I have noticed your same superior attitude in some other people with degrees. It came from a blog I found on history. Someone had written a post in which I had some very interesting and... more
- Definitions — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 3:37pmSigh ... I once read something someone said to Chris Shea when he repeated asked the same question over and over. The person being questioned ended up replying something to the effect, that he could... more
- Using dedinitions correctly — Jeff Smith, Mon Nov 7 9:48amOk, Cathy I'll try one more time. I originally brought up the very academic Oxford dictionary definitions to you for the words legend and myth because of what you wrote. For instance, in a previous... more
- Soapy's derringer — Cathy Spude, Sat Oct 29 8:28amJeff: Thank you for explaining in more detail your position on the derringer. I think I now understand. In Sinclair's papers is a letter to his wife dated July 18, 1898 and continued on July 19,... more
- Re: Soapy's derringer — Jeff Smith, Sat Oct 29 11:39pmCathy, You are welcome, but I didn't really explain things in more detail, I merely copied and pasted the information from my book. Soapy's executor of his estate was John Clancy. A vigilante lawyer... more
- montdawn@msn.com — Cathy Spude, Wed Nov 2 9:44amHi Jeff: Sorry to take so long to reply to your kind explanation. I have been preoccupied with other business. Hmmmm...I read in the July 2, 1898 issue of the Skaguay News that John Clancy went to... more
- John Clancy — Jeff Smith, Wed Nov 2 11:14pmYou mention that John Clancy was in Dawson when Soapy was killed. I'm not convinced he was out of town for the fourth of July or for the July 8 gunfight. According to his son, who could be wrong,... more
- FRANK Clancy — Cathy Spude, Fri Nov 4 1:16pmOops. My apologies. I see I did say John Clancy, when of course, I meant FRANK. The June 2, 1898 issue of the Skaguay News says that FRANK is leaving for a trip to Dawson. Considering how long it... more
- Re: FRANK Clancy — Jeff Smith, Fri Nov 4 10:45pmCathy, I surely hope you are not making all these mistakes in your book! Six of the seven council members were forced to resign, not all seven. You probably should read my book again. I hardly think... more
- Interpretation of Primary Historic documents — Cathy Spude, Sat Nov 5 6:59amAll seven of the city council members were forced to resign. If you say otherwise in your book, you are wrong. I do refer to your book often, and do find mistakes in it. The new city coucil that was... more
- Re: Interpretation of Primary Historic documents — Jeff Smith, Sat Nov 5 12:00pmCathy, I did a maximum amount of research regarding the history of Skagway and Soapy's time there. There are bound to be mistakes made but here is what I have. You wrote, "All seven of the city... more
- interpretation — Cathy Spude, Sat Nov 5 4:11pmIn later issues of both the Skaguay News and of the Daily Alaskan, it becomes clear that all SEVEN members of the city council were forced to resign. A new city council election was called on July... more
- Our views vs. facts — Jeff Smith, Sat Nov 5 8:29pmYou wrote, "In later issues of both the Skaguay News and of the Daily Alaskan, it becomes clear that all SEVEN members of the city council were forced to resign. A new city council election was... more
- Errors — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 2:48pmI don't want to get into a long list of errors, some of which are minor and don't really matter. Some are major, and will come out in my book. Some could launch long, heated discussions, and maybe... more
- Soapy as a "tin goblin" — Jeff Smith, Fri Nov 18 7:07pmCathy, Once again I assumed you were right. You wrote, "One that comes to mind immediately is your assertion that Soapy was in Skagway in November of 1897. You base this on the single 'fact' that a... more
- Tin Goblin — Cathy Spude, Tue Nov 22 9:44amFor Your Consideration, Jeff: SOAPY TIMELINE, SKAGWAY (Mostly taken from Jeff Smith’s Alias Soapy.) August 22, 1897: Soapy arrives in Skagway on the Utopia (Smith, Alias, p. 345). September 14, 1897: ... more
- Congratulations, this is possible. — Jeff Smith, Sun Nov 6 6:13pmCongratulations Cathy! You may have finally caught a mistake I may have made. It's a good possibility and I'll look into it. You mention that Soapy "didn't get his permission to open a business on... more
- Clancy, Saportes and Hornsby — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 2:31pmThe fact that these three gentlemen were in Skagway earlier than Soapy is documented in the Skagway Lot Location files on file in both the Skagway Public Library and in the Alaska State Archives in... more
- Re: Clancy, Saportes and Hornsby — Jeff Smith, Mon Nov 7 10:39amI note in this post symptoms of what I talked about in another post regarding "reading between the lines" and "assuming." You can talk all you want but knowing your past history I can't take your... more
- Newspaper articles, city council — Cathy Spude, Sat Nov 12 10:27amJeff: As you prefer to do your own interpretations, and don't trust mine, I've posted the six critical newspaper articles dealing with the city council changes to my website at... more
- Thank you, have not had time to read them. Wiil do so soon. (nm) — Jeff Smith, Mon Nov 14 11:06am
- Tanner and Slim Jim — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 1:58pmJeff: The trouble with these very long, multi-subject postings is that we lose track of who said what when. Can we make a "rule" to try to stay polite? And to try to break the threads into single... more
- Re: Tanner and Slim Jim — Jeff Smith, Sun Nov 6 6:02pmYou wrote, "The trouble with these very long, multi-subject postings is that we lose track of who said what when. Can we make a "rule" to try to stay polite? And to try to break the threads into... more
- Tanner Revolver — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 10:00am
- Selmer revolver — Jeff Smith, Sun Nov 6 1:33pmCathy, I know it's an embarrassing and sore point with you but I bring up the history of what you told me about the Selmer revolver because it is a good example of how you have made great mistakes in ... more
- Tanner Revolver — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 3:19pmJeff: In the interest of keeping this dialogue going, as I asked before, lets try to be cordial. Insulting the Tanner family in talking to me is not being cordial. In my mind, if the Tanner family... more
- Insulting the Tanner family? — Jeff Smith, Mon Nov 7 10:31amCathy, I am a historian. There are certain rules historians are encouraged to abide by. Naturally one of these is to keep opinions and facts separated. You can freely have opinions but you must... more
- Peer Review — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 9:41amPerhaps you don't understand the nature of peer review. I don't believe they have it for the big national presses, only for the academic presses (but I could be wrong). I believe for a press like... more
- Peer Review +1 — Jeff Smith, Sun Nov 6 1:42pmOne reviewer knew my book. That is great. However, it was only one, not all your reviewers, thus my conclusion has to remain the same. What review and testing process your book went through means... more
- Replies — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 9:25amAh, Jeez... I just spent almost an hour making replies, and then lost it all. Maybe I should do this little by little! I don't think I'm going to rewrite my book on your webpage, Jeff. In order to... more
- Vigilante — Jeff Smith, Sun Nov 6 1:46pmYou may object to the term "vigilante" but by definition that's exactly what the 101 was. Jeff Smith
- Committee of 101 — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 6 2:10pmOkay, we'll talk some more about vigilantes in September, after you've had a chance to read my book from start to finish, and in the order it was meant to be read. Then we can have a lucid... more
- Vigilantes of 101 — Jeff Smith, Mon Nov 7 10:13amYes, I look forward to what your book says, but I will need to do the additional research due to your habit of "reading between the lines." This reminds me of a little story. There's a gentleman on a ... more
