Cathy Spude
Myth, Legend, Slotkin and Soapy
Fri Nov 12, 2010 14:14
Thanks to comments from Gary Roberts and historians in Alaska, I have much revised and retitled my work on the last days of Soapy Smith as MYTH, LEGEND AND SOAPY SMITH. Today I put a proposal in the mail to the editor of a renown academic press and we'll see what happens. The reason I mention all this to this forum is because much of the new material discusses the Smith Legend in the context of Slotkin's American Frontier Myth and his theme of "regeneration through violence." I intend to end my discussion with a comparison with the Earp Brothers, Jesse James, Billy the Kid, Wild Bill Hickok and George Armstrong Custer legends.
(Big Breath, here). This chapter has only been drafted out, and I'd be interested in what you all have to say. What does this forum think of Slotkin? Is he passe? Do you think Smith has the hero/anti-hero status of these latter characters and deserves the Big League discussion?
By the way, ALASKA HISTORY just published my review of Jeff Smith's biography of Soapy. I hope I did it justice.
(Big Breath, here). This chapter has only been drafted out, and I'd be interested in what you all have to say. What does this forum think of Slotkin? Is he passe? Do you think Smith has the hero/anti-hero status of these latter characters and deserves the Big League discussion?
By the way, ALASKA HISTORY just published my review of Jeff Smith's biography of Soapy. I hope I did it justice.
- Slotkin as historian — William Urban, Wed Nov 17 18:55In 1994 one common theme among cutting edge historians was that of lawmen being hired guns for American capitalism. For me that tied in nicely with the B&W B-movies I had seen as a kid in Central... more
- Thank you William... — Jeff Smith, Thu Nov 18 20:35Thank you William. When I responded to Cathy Spude on my Soapy Smith blog I did not know enough about Richard Slotkin, never having read his works. Thanks to you I understand more about him now, and... more
- Thank you, thank you, Mr. Urban (nm) — K.t.K., Wed Nov 17 19:35
- Slotkin as Historian — Cathy Spude, Fri Nov 19 09:04Finally, we have some discussion. I don't believe Richard Slotkin ever claimed to be a historian. He was a professor of English and American Studies at Wesleyan University, and therefore best... more
- Well put — Gary Roberts, Fri Nov 19 13:15Cathy, I've been working on a response to Professor Urban myself. As usual, I was more than a little long-winded. Then, I read your post. It seems to me that you have the topic well in hand and... more
- Thanks, Gary — Cathy Spude, Sat Nov 20 08:28Actually, it was something you said when you reviewed a draft of my manuscript that sent me off in the direction of looking at myth and legend, so I really have you to thank for this line of thought, ... more
- Way over my head, Cathy — K.t.K., Fri Nov 19 09:41I'm just a blue collar dude. One time I had a guy tell me I was in possession of an IQ about eight points higher than a turnip. That was immediately after I bounced him out of a joint. Kenny
- Not so. You are very clear. — Tom Gaumer, Fri Nov 19 09:15Cathy Joseph Campbell in his PBS shows about mythology said something like this, "If you want to know about a people or culture find out what the people believe rather than seeking the truth." If... more
- true enouh — william urban, Sat Nov 20 04:53If you want to study the audience, it is true that the facts matter little. If you want to study Wyatt Earp, they do matter. An audience conditioned by 1950 B movies to think of the railroad, bankers ... more
- No better question could be asked about Wyatt (nm) — Tom Gaumer, Mon Nov 22 22:10
- Perfectly said, however... — Jeff Smith, Sat Nov 20 08:41William, your post makes perfect since but if I may move the discussion back to her original intent, which is writing a book on Soapy Smith, my great-grandfather, using Slotkin's theories as stated... more
- Ha Ha Ha — Cathy Spude, Fri Nov 19 09:50Tom: I have a copy of the book by Joe Campbell and Tom Moyer that was written after the PBS shows, and it has some great insight into American Mythology, stuff that really helps me understand our... more
- I hope the truth is not really that flexible but ...? — Tom Gaumer, Fri Nov 19 17:09Cathy I see no reason we can not all agree on the true nature and factual story of Wyatt Earp by tomorrow at noon. Bring dueling pistols in case that is an error. Keep Laughing Tom
- Truth, history and legend — Cathy Spude, Sat Nov 20 08:19I hope that no one thinks that I'm saying mythology, legend and history tell the truth in exactly the same way. The facts of history and the elements of legend, of course, will differ. Historians and ... more
- Re: Truth, history and legend — Pam Potter, Sun Nov 21 07:32I find the discussion intriguing. I have long held my own theories on why many consider Wyatt Earp a legendary hero. His flaws contribute to his heroic image. If you look at fictional main characters ... more
- Heroes as flawed — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 21 08:03Hi Pam! Dixon Wector, in his 1963 book THE HERO IN AMERICA states that the hero has a sympathy for handicap, struggle and failure, because he has suffered these faults himself. In the classes I have... more
- Paladin — Pam Potter, Sun Nov 21 08:52People want to be able to identify with their heros and because they themselves are flawed so must be their paladin. Pam
- How sure are you that studying those fellows will — Tom Gaumer, Sat Nov 20 12:45Cathy result in an uplifting lesson for the future generations? Isn't it possible study of such people might make people cynical about history. especially as presented in most media? I mean the media ... more
- It is not that hard to see the process — Gary Roberts, Sun Nov 21 13:19When you read the feature articles about Western characters in the 1880s and 1890s, it is easy enough to see that people ate them up because the stories somehow represented a simpler time that was... more
- Seems safe. Who could disagree? (nm) — Tom Gaumer, Mon Nov 22 22:52
- Gary Roberts — DeArment, Mon Nov 22 06:06Do followers of this board realize how fortunate they are to have a learned professor of history provide them with coolly reasoned comments, without rancor or bias, on the subjects in which they are... more
- Re: Gary Roberts — Jeff Isble, Tue Nov 30 11:47Bob, I do. Jeff
- I do also (nm) — Tom Gaumer, Tue Nov 30 15:27
- Thank you, Bob — Gary Roberts, Mon Nov 22 12:00You are far too generous. Best! Gary
- This one does. (nm) — Larry K, Mon Nov 22 10:19
- Hear, Hear! — Cathy Spude, Mon Nov 22 08:13Well said, Bob. And thank you, Gary, for your well-reasoned and thoughtful comments. Very enlightening, as usual.
- Truth — Gary Roberts, Sat Nov 20 12:37An accumulation of facts does not, of itself, constitute the truth. I wish it were that simple. But facts do not explain themselves.
- Truth, humor and fact — Cathy Spude, Sun Nov 21 07:52Tom makes a good point when he says that people can get frustrated if writers confuse history with myth and legend. That is why I want to specifically discuss the difference between the two and talk... more
- "little interpretation" in my book!? — Jeff Smith, Sun Nov 21 15:56According to you Cathy, "Jeff Smith's book, for instance, is a superb collection of facts about the life of Soapy Smith, but I found little interpretation in his book." That's not true. It's just not ... more
- Definition of Interpretation — Cathy Spude, Mon Nov 22 09:09As usual, Jeff misunderstands me, as if there is only one definition of historical interpretation. I suspect he simply objects to my name and reacts negatively to anything I say. The more I write... more
- Predictable yet strange. — Larry K, Mon Nov 22 10:30When two people write about the same subject they always have to be at odds. In my opinion they should let it go; they will more than likely sell books for each other anyway. Oh well, the nature of... more
- authors not always at odds — william urban, Wed Nov 24 06:57I have some very good friends who write about the same subject I do--which is most importantly medieval history in the Baltic region. There is a lot of history there and many different audiences.... more
- Again, you are correct. — Jeff Smith, Wed Nov 24 07:46Once again William, you are correct. I do personally believe I am the foremost historian on Soapy Smith, but I do not believe, as Cathy states, that I am the only one allowed to discuss his history,... more
