I don't understand your question mark after "...Marks failed to identify sources?" Are you saying she did identify them because I don't see where?
Once into a trial who would not try and win? That does not mean you cannot win by telling the truth. The judge said that the Earps would not be found guilty of any crime whatsoever and the grand jury on two occasions did not take up the case and two other courts rejected the case. What do you want from the courts in the way of a decision that is any more complete and clear than that?
If you have one of the best lawyers in the country and he tells you to have Wyatt read a statement and Virgil testify, would you insist on Doc and Morgan testifying? You can speculate about what their not testifying means but you can never know anything about the reason they did not testify other than your speculation.
Virgil was offered the help of 35 vigilantes from the best citizens of the town. Virgil chose not to take any of them. As this is going to be a very public confrontation, what leads you to believe that Virgil would undertake a personal fight in such plain view? Isn't Bronk allowed to sleep? I can't speak for Shibell but why would he endanger himself for nothing? You need to know if Paul was there before asking if he would help. Then you need to know if he was knowledgable about the details and at the site and available to be asked. You talk about "just to enforce a violation" as if remaining armed after making threats is some minor thing rather than a major ingredient in a potentially murderous fight. I don't understand why?
Spicer said Wyatt and Doc were poor choices and then said why he found nothing criminal in such choices and in fact found them understandable considering the situation. Seems pretty right to me but still poor choices but I see nothing wrong, proven by evidence, in what either Wyatt or Doc did on the scene.
If Virgil was not present then no one else would have been because he was city marshal and the cowboys were violating city laws. We cannot know why Virgil did not take more men. We can speculate and in hindsight he should have but how can we know why he did not beyond speculation? Why did he even go down there as Behan was handling it and had not failed yet. Virgil pushing past Behan can be reasonably interpreted to mean he was seeking a confrontation. But Virgil may have just thought than he had waited long enough and had given the cowboys enough time to leave or disarm and now his credibility was on the line. How can we know his reasoning? At what point does Virgil's right to enforce the Ordinance No. 9 become his duty?
It makes sense to me that weapons would be in the Earp's hands. Doc had it right by my thinking. Intimidate them into quitting and avoid a fight. Everyone involved would have been better off if that had happened. Yet it did not!! When Virgil acquired the shot gun it seems to me he was making a statement that he believed a maximum effort would be needed to make the cowboys surrender and a fight was very possible. Or he was assuring a fight would not take place by introducing such a devastating short range weapon into the mix. Maybe it was intended to intimidate and prevent a fight and it just didn't happen?
One thing remains clear to me. All the cowboys needed to do was disarm and obey the law and no one gets killed.
Yet they lacked the grasp of reality necessary to do that. Why? How could anything be any clearer? If you don't wish to meet police enforcing the law, don't break the law and bring the police down on you. What could be simpler? Ike and likely Tom have had their butts kicked and the fight likely taken out of them at least for that day. Now Billy and Frank insist on keeping their guns and making threats. What was unclear to them from their brothers experiences? It seems very clear to me. Disarm for sure and don't make threats as a good theory to try. Something similar to what happened to Tom is coming. Something identical to what happened to Ike is coming for sure. All over town the people know that and even Billy Clanton knows it. Yet Frank pushes on to defy Behan and not disarm now!! What could make Frank so out of touch with reality? I don't know. Do you? Check his gun when he enters town at The Grand along with Billy and he leaves town alive. Give Behan his gun when Behan demands it and they leave town alive. Frank insists on staying armed and making threats. Many of the townspeople know what is coming but Frank and Billy seem focued on winning a Darwin Award and they do. Not something to boast about in my opinion.
Spicer's comment on the charges makes it clear he would not accept a manslaughter charge at all. Lubet is kidding himself.
I agree, sources should of been given, but Marks failed to identify the sources? I think there were a few other testimonies that would of been useful if they testified. Obviously this case was about... more
bfrey, Given the fact that Ike Clanton was the one who leveled the charge of murder against the Earps and Doc Holliday, was Litttleton Price empowered to lower that charge, on his own, to manslaugher ... more
The office of the Prosecutor determines what charges to level and what they can prove. Ike and Wm McLaury demanded and lobbied for the charges they wanted. That is not suppose to be the way it works. ... more
Without a primer in territorial law, it is difficult to offer strong opinions on how things were supposed to work. We can't assume that the laws of 1881 Arizona operated the same way that they do in... more
Obviously there are differences, but obviously Ike did not know what the differences were in a legal complaint. Ike charged everyone with the highest count irregardless of the evidence. Is it any... more
"regardless" or "irrespective." "Irregardless" is not a word. Or, rather, it is a word, but it is the sort of incorrect word that will get you red-flagged every time by the grammer police. File it... more
Doc could of been charged with manslaughter or another form of murder by the witness statements the cowboys presented. I didn't say the statements were true but they could of convinced a jury. If Doc ... more
Offering any good points, means participating in the forum with ideas and insight. You seem to just lurk around and pounce on others with your delightful criticism. If that makes you happy, please... more
I don't "pounce" on others. I reserve my "pouncing" for you specifically owing to you specifically being the prime offender in these matters. If you posted less, it would be less of an issue, and I... more
teach a community college I think they would need a person with your talent. Got an original thought or idea let me know, otherwise your wasting my time. You could at least spell right if you or... more
I believe Ike swore out the complaint and the warrant was issued on his sworn complaint/affadavit. Today a citizen makes a complaint and an officer/prosecutor will obtain a warrant signed by a judge. ... more
bfrey, Don't you think that because of the politicalization of this case that had Price charged the Earps and Holliday with a lesser charge than murder that the NUGGET would have voiced indignant... more
I have to imagine that the Nugget would understand Price's decision if it was explained? The Nugget always voiced indignant outrage. Bottom line who was in charge of this decision, Ike, Will, and the ... more
First, Marks did identify her source--see p. 443 (213. "tall man": CI, p. 15.). CI in her note system stands for Coroner's Inquest. We don't know where the other officers were. Bronk may have been at ... more
Yes, speculation isn't useful I agree. What is factual is that no other law enforcement officers were enlisted to enforce a local ordinance. There were other sworn officers that easily could of been... more
Judge away, but keep in mind that your judgments are likely to say more about you than they are about Virgil’s decisions that day. I think that is Gary’s point. The rather uncomplicated truth is that ... more
bfrey, The fact is that the men who confronted the cow-boys in the vacant lot were the very same men that Ike Clanton had been threatening all morning long. If Virgil Earp had enlisted other deputies ... more
That's another good point. The men who confronted the cowboys were the same men who had been repeatedly threatened. Therefore, by the standards of honor operative at the place and time, having the... more
So as to Ike threatening and calling the tune we have to question if the others were actively involved and aware of the level of Ike's threats? Ike at one point was a one man band. Ike was also... more
bfrey, Well, Frank McLaury may have had his own private tune playing in his head. While it was Ike's dim-witted public one-man-riot that put Tombstone on edge, it was Frank McLaury's intransigent... more
swaggered: past participle, past tense of swag·ger Verb: Walk or behave in a very confident and typically arrogant or aggressive way. That is basically the way that many Tombstone citizens believed... more
In my opinion the Earps should of been a little more contrite about taking 3 lives. They should of took the posture of acting remorseful, regretting their actions and saying so. They still had the... more
swagger and sashay suggest an element of strutting, arrogantly in the former case, with a certain contrived, "look-at-me" nonchalance in the latter. My own hunch, based on nothing, is that the Earps... more
They listened enough to get themselves in trouble. If you rub your hands in catfish charlie they are going to stink for a while no matter how much you try to wash them afterward. Others can even come ... more
Can you not pursue winning by telling the truth? Tom Gaumer,Mon Apr 16 22:33
Sorry about the question mark after the quote. I guess I was asking why she wouldn't list a source regarding that comment. You explain it perfectly, who would not try and win. Everyone tries to win... more
bfrey In most books including the best on these subjects, like "Doc Holliday The Life and Legend" and "Wyatt Earp The Life Behand the Legend" the footnotes are so clear and easy to follow. A few... more