Thanks Gary. Your young eyes trump my geezer eyes.
Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:11
I suggested Gilchrieses map and the back route as a possibility for discussion by putting up the first post and after I said he might not know what he was doing, I added “but who knows?” I think that indicates I was giving consideration to his view and was interested in his views. 63 is labeled as you suggest in very small letters that only a young man like you could easily see. Here is the rest of what he said, “a later photograph of this site (Lot 6 owned by Montgomery and Benson) sometimes erroneously identified as scene of O.K. Corral battle.”
Here is what I said about Gilchriese and what you said I said. Do you see the difference? Me—“That leads me to doubt Gilchriese knew what he was doing but who knows?” You—“. Your characterization that Gilchriese did not know what he was doing is also unmerited.”
I intended the issue to be what evidence is there that some of the cowboys entered the lot next to Fly’s by a rear route and, much more importantly what is the evidence for that?
I know that Mullins and Gilchriese worked together on occasion and on the map. As you know Mullins map listed the following as the bldgs. on Fremont.
63 was Capitol Saloon, 62 was TOMBSTONE NUGGET, 61 was L.W. Blum & Co. 60 was A. O. Trantrum, recorder and City attorney, 59 was CITY HALL (under construction; completed Summer ’82), 58 was POPAGO CASH STORE (Frank B. Austin, Prop) A later photograph of this site (Lot 6 owned by Montgomery and Benson) sometimes erroneously identified as the scene of O. K. Corral Battle, although all accounts, including court testimony, indicate that before encountering the Clanton’s and McLowerys, the Earp party had advanced west past Bauer’s (Lot 5) and Fly’s (Lot 3), 57 was BAUER’S BUTCHER SHOP (Everhardy’s), 56 was Property of Tombstone Townsite Company, 55 was C. S. Fly’s Photo Studio, 54 New bldg. occupied by Mr. and Mrs. Olsen “Oil Paintings & Hair Goods. Previously (Fall ’81)vacant and used as part of O.K. CORRAL YARD. THIS AND GROUND IMMEDIATELY WEST, SCENE OF BATTLE OF O. K. CORRAL, October 26, 1881, 53 was VACANT PROPERTY AND OPEN STALLS USED IN COMNNECTION WITH O. K. CORRAL, 52 W. A. HARWOOD’S HOUSE (Occupied by Assay office in spring of 82). There is Mullins rendition of the whole block south side.
Note there is no entry on the map or the explanation for an O. K. Corral entrance on Fremont St. This in spite of his acknowledgement that Montgomery and Benson own Lot 6 and it’s sometime tie in with the gunfight. He shows only the two openings to Fremont Street in 53 and 56. Gilchriese map apparently added the tiny entrance to the corral you noted and I missed as 63 on Gilchriese map. On the maps I have, Mullins map is dated 1916 and Gilchriese’s 1975.
I’m familiar with what Casey said on page 120 but was more interested in the issue and was seeking the evidence for the idea the Billys split off and entered Fly’s from the rear. The whole point being Nick claims Billy Clanton left his horse at the butchers (Bauers). If Billy Clanton never passed the butchers but went the back way into the lot next to Fly’s and Claiborne says they were together all the way, Nicks theory of Billy’s horse being tied up at the butchers during the fight won’t hold together well. Claiborne's credibility will also take a hit if i understand the issue correctly.
Here is the assertion from you I am seeking the evidence for, “The youngsters, Billy and Will, with nothing to do but wait on the others, turned behind the businesses on Fremont and walked through an open area and turned again into the vacant lot between Fly's and Harwood's. Claiborne testified that he and Billy went directly from the O. K. Corral "to where the difficulty occurred."--NUGGET, November 9.” Are you hanging it on the word “directly?” If so, how do you arrive at that meaning they went behind the businesses? Down Fremont seems pretty direct also.
You also say, “The evidence indicates that Billy Clanton and Will Claiborne, the young guys, were walking behind the others carrying on a separate conversation.” Coleman says, “Ike Clanton fetched up in the rear” as they crossed Allen street. Why do you believe the Billy’s were walking behind?
I’m not arguing for or against the back route but seeking the information that supports it or not. Have you given it all in this post, “directly” and the Billy’s arrived first?
I believe one lesson from studying this a bit is that there was an unofficial and not regularly used way to enter or exit the O. K. corral from the lot next to Fly's. This may reflect some light on why the cowboys or others might end up in that area, independent of who lived at Flys. I still don't understand how the O.K. Corral could use that area for stock as it was open, according to the maps to both Fremont and Third?
I almost always consider what you say to be of good worth and always worth a listen.
Tom, Number 63 on Gilchriese's map, which is directly in line with the O. K. Corral, is labeled, "Vacant. Sometimes used as back entrance to O. K. Corral." There's more to his description, but this... more
Mullin or Gilchriese notes any source material about where they got the information on the Cowboys' route through the rear of the corral. Do they mention any source material on this in any other... more
Honestly, I'm not sure how Mullin and Gilchriese arrived at their conclusion about the route. Shillingberg, who knew Gilchriese and his work as well as anybody, has the cowboys walking together to... more
Without some digging I don't know. John Behan died on June 7, 1912, so Hayhurst would have been young if he did know him. What I do know is that Hayhurst knew several of the Tombstone old-timers and... more
Gary In Hayhursts file at AHS he comes across as the consumate historian. In other places he does not. Knowing several Tombstone old timers that might be a hint where he might have come up with his... more
Tom, This will have to be brief. For one thing, I have to be somewhere shortly, and for another, I don't have time to review the testimony the way I need to in order to give you the kind of answer... more
This was not like the Beatles crossing Abbey Road. Gary, This is a great conversation. I think it is important. You have just done what few do, by making individuals of these ranchers. I found while... more
Robin "So, for Billy Clanton and Billy Claiborne to take an easier and shorter route to their rendezvous seems very possible and very probable to me." I have asked everyone I can think of to show... more
Hi Tom, What evidence is there that the two Billy's came out at the Fremont Street O.K. Corral exit? Who saw them there? Who testified to that? Billy Allen and Reuben Coleman, in a sense, followed... more
Robin However I note it is a position held by few for which no actual evidence is presented that I have been able to find from those who advocate for it Almost every person who has written about this ... more
Nick, I can't know for sure, because we can only speculate about what might have happened if Sheriff Behan hadn't shown up. My general belief has been that Billy was anxious to leave and that the... more
Since it appears from photographs that there were no hitching rails on the street, it was a misdemeanor to tie your horse to a tree, and I get the impression that people were encouraged to take their ... more
Gary, This morning I reviewed Billy Claiborne's testimony before the Coroner's Inquest and at the Spicer Hearing to see if there was anything I had previously overlooked that might clarify the route... more
Jerry, My guess is that Coroner Matthews initiated preliminary interviews with potential witnesses in order to determine which witnesses should later be called at the Coroner's Inquest. Exactly how... more
Matthews talked to the people that were on the scene that day, and based on those initial conversations put together a witness list for the inquest. The most curious thing about the coroner's inquest ... more
Gary, Two possibilities arise as to why the police involved in the shooting were not called to testify in the Coroner's inquest: 1.) Behan successfully managed to manipulate Matthews in the selection ... more
Jeff, Is it realistic to think that the Earps were already conferring with Fitch within a couple of hours of the street fight? I don't know, maybe they were, but I have never seen anything on it.... more
Gary I understood there was no information on how the cowboys proceeded once in the OK Corral but Coleman gave a clue. As you know Sills is the only one who testified to seeing the cowboys standing... more
Gary. Tom had business that he transacted earlier at the Eagle Meat market on Allen - that was when the witnesses (Gardner and Bilicke) saw him emerge with a bulge in his pants pocket. He certainly... more
If you look at the old photos of Bauer's you get a sense that it was a small building with no awnings, a large window in front, and a small porch/sidewalk. King says that she stepped into the outer... more
Those old photos of "Bauer's" have been deceiving many of us for quite some time. The building that was there at the time of the gunfight was much larger. About a year and a half ago, Gary McLelland... more
The usually used photos of Bauer's are of the rebuilt store taken many years later (see the one in Lake's book, for example). Mrs. King was pretty explicit as to where she was. She said that the... more
Somewhere I've seen a map that shows the area that was destroyed in the 1882 fire. Been looking for it, but can't find it. As I remember, the fire stopped west of Bauer's(which it destroyed), but... more
I was going through some of Bob Bell's books and found a picture of the original Oriental bar before the fire. It had several very tall doors that seem to stand open to allow easy in and out access.... more
Yes, I've seen those photos. The great photo Gary McLelland provided was taken from quite a distance, so it was not easy to see in detail. To me, it looked like there were two doors in the center of... more
I counted a set of 4 doors along the front of the building, and one at the corner. Think two on the side of 5th street from a drawing of the building. That was a large open air gambling den, easy in... more
Yes, the high doors, over 10ft high, I think there was two doors facing main street, and of course the corner door that Claiborne was waiting in front. Years ago I was standing at the side entrance... more
Geraldo I guess they did that because they thought the fight was in the entrance of the O.K. Corral and they knew fly's was involved. Thus i guess they merged those two thoughts, maybe? Interesting... more
Tom, Many, many, many years ago, when I was just a pup, I remember seeing similar photos in books about "The Old West" in the public library. I remember that the caption under one picture stated,... more
Gary, That was probably it. The only time I read Lake's book was when I checked it out of the library those many years ago. I think I saw another book there on old west or Arizona history with one of ... more
to the "threat" well before the cowboys reached Fremont Street. All of the movements on Allen and Fourth, as well as the reports that the cowboys as a group had moved into the O. K. Corral were the... more