Gary Roberts
Maps and movements
Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:40
Tom,
This will have to be brief. For one thing, I have to be somewhere shortly, and for another, I don't have time to review the testimony the way I need to in order to give you the kind of answer your questions deserve.
Briefly, Mullin used the 1916 map, but prepared a revision in 1949 (See my article on the O. K. Corral in the current WWHA JOURNAL).
Coleman said that Ike was last as they crossed Allen and entered the O. K. Corral. What we don't have clear evidence on is the conversation and movements that took place among the cowboys once they were inside the corral. Standing together as they were when Sills saw them leaves us with no insight of how they proceeded through the corral on the part of Sills, Coleman, or Allen. Ike could easily have walked with Frank toward Fremont while the Billys lingered before proceeding to the vacant lot.
It is a theory, but the combination of events suggests that the vacant lot was the place they agreed to meet. That fits whether they were up to mischief or on their way to the West End Corral for Ike's wagon.
If I thought that Billy did in fact tie his horse up in front of Bauer's before going to Fly's then going through to Fremont is the argument I would make, although it would pose a problem too. If Billy was urging Ike to get out of town, as Claiborne also testify, why would he tie up a horse that he would have to go back for before proceeding to the West End Corral? If they were really leaving town, wouldn't it make more sense for him to keep the horse with him?
I need to review what I have on the "back route." We had a discussion on the board which dealt with this some months ago, and I need to check my notes to give you an adequate answer. As for the "directly," I see your point, but I still think the back route was the most direct route. It was largely open and unobstructed. Again I'll have to check sources, but there is evidence that the O. K. Corral used the vacant area. It may not have been used to hold stock, but it could have been used to store hay or park wagons or hold other equipment used by the corral.
I'll get back to you on this one, but I have an appointment that I have to keep. It'll have to be later.
Best!
Gary
This will have to be brief. For one thing, I have to be somewhere shortly, and for another, I don't have time to review the testimony the way I need to in order to give you the kind of answer your questions deserve.
Briefly, Mullin used the 1916 map, but prepared a revision in 1949 (See my article on the O. K. Corral in the current WWHA JOURNAL).
Coleman said that Ike was last as they crossed Allen and entered the O. K. Corral. What we don't have clear evidence on is the conversation and movements that took place among the cowboys once they were inside the corral. Standing together as they were when Sills saw them leaves us with no insight of how they proceeded through the corral on the part of Sills, Coleman, or Allen. Ike could easily have walked with Frank toward Fremont while the Billys lingered before proceeding to the vacant lot.
It is a theory, but the combination of events suggests that the vacant lot was the place they agreed to meet. That fits whether they were up to mischief or on their way to the West End Corral for Ike's wagon.
If I thought that Billy did in fact tie his horse up in front of Bauer's before going to Fly's then going through to Fremont is the argument I would make, although it would pose a problem too. If Billy was urging Ike to get out of town, as Claiborne also testify, why would he tie up a horse that he would have to go back for before proceeding to the West End Corral? If they were really leaving town, wouldn't it make more sense for him to keep the horse with him?
I need to review what I have on the "back route." We had a discussion on the board which dealt with this some months ago, and I need to check my notes to give you an adequate answer. As for the "directly," I see your point, but I still think the back route was the most direct route. It was largely open and unobstructed. Again I'll have to check sources, but there is evidence that the O. K. Corral used the vacant area. It may not have been used to hold stock, but it could have been used to store hay or park wagons or hold other equipment used by the corral.
I'll get back to you on this one, but I have an appointment that I have to keep. It'll have to be later.
Best!
Gary
- Any ideas on this question? — Tom Gaumer, Tue Apr 17 16:52How did all the cowboys get to the lot next to Flys? Most maps don’t show a route but suggest directly through the O.K. Corral and then a left turn down Fremont to Flys. Marks and McLelland... more
- Both routes taken? — Geraldo, Wed Apr 18 06:55Tom, Casey Tefertiller uses Gary McLelland's map in his book, but shows both routes taken. The McLaurys & Ike go to the rear entrance and Billy Clanton & Claiborne take the short cut(pages 210 &... more
- Route taken — Steve Sanders, Tue Apr 17 21:25Would the route that Gilchriese suggests be the same route we take on foot now: Allen St entrance, past the ticket booth, back through the lot, left just past the stables, and then right into the... more
- It seems that way to me. However is there anything — Tom Gaumer, Tue Apr 17 23:39Steve to what Gilchriese says was their route as most seem to believe they went on through the O. K. Corral and out onto Fremont? I don't know. Gilchriese map shows no Fremont entrance to the O. K.... more
- Look at Gilchriese's map again — Gary Roberts, Wed Apr 18 07:51Tom, Number 63 on Gilchriese's map, which is directly in line with the O. K. Corral, is labeled, "Vacant. Sometimes used as back entrance to O. K. Corral." There's more to his description, but this... more
- Gary, I don't see where — Butch Badon, Fri Apr 20 12:59Mullin or Gilchriese notes any source material about where they got the information on the Cowboys' route through the rear of the corral. Do they mention any source material on this in any other... more
- Hi, Butch — Gary Roberts, Sat Apr 21 05:58Honestly, I'm not sure how Mullin and Gilchriese arrived at their conclusion about the route. Shillingberg, who knew Gilchriese and his work as well as anybody, has the cowboys walking together to... more
- Is that all there is about the back route? — Tom Gaumer, Sat Apr 21 07:49Gary I was told to look in Claiborne's testimony for the information about he and Billy Clanton taking the "back route" but found nothing that seemed to indicate that to me. So far there seems... more
- I'm not through yet, Tom (nm) — Gary Roberts, Sat Apr 21 08:04
- Sorry. I appreciate your effort and there is no hurry. (nm) — Tom Gaumer, Sat Apr 21 18:19
- P.S. Gary. Did Hayhurst know Johnny Behan of just Albert? (nm) — Tom Gaumer, Sat Apr 21 07:52
- Hayhurst/Behan — Gary Roberts, Sat Apr 21 13:07Without some digging I don't know. John Behan died on June 7, 1912, so Hayhurst would have been young if he did know him. What I do know is that Hayhurst knew several of the Tombstone old-timers and... more
- I tried to find the answer simply and failed. — Tom Gaumer, Sat Apr 21 18:16Gary In Hayhursts file at AHS he comes across as the consumate historian. In other places he does not. Knowing several Tombstone old timers that might be a hint where he might have come up with his... more
- Well stated Gary regarding JDG, thank you! (nm) — Kevin Mulkins, Wed Apr 18 18:15
- Thanks Gary. Your young eyes trump my geezer eyes. — Tom Gaumer, Wed Apr 18 12:11I suggested Gilchrieses map and the back route as a possibility for discussion by putting up the first post and after I said he might not know what he was doing, I added “but who knows?” I think that ... more
- Maps and movements — Gary Roberts, Wed Apr 18 12:40
- No Abbey Road — Robin Andrews, Mon Apr 23 17:31This was not like the Beatles crossing Abbey Road. Gary, This is a great conversation. I think it is important. You have just done what few do, by making individuals of these ranchers. I found while... more
- On what evidence do you say these words — Tom Gaumer, Mon Apr 23 18:00Robin "So, for Billy Clanton and Billy Claiborne to take an easier and shorter route to their rendezvous seems very possible and very probable to me." I have asked everyone I can think of to show... more
- Re: On what evidence do you say these words — Robin Andrews, Tue Apr 24 08:15Hi Tom, What evidence is there that the two Billy's came out at the Fremont Street O.K. Corral exit? Who saw them there? Who testified to that? Billy Allen and Reuben Coleman, in a sense, followed... more
- I have no strong belief on the matter at all. — Tom Gaumer, Tue Apr 24 12:17Robin However I note it is a position held by few for which no actual evidence is presented that I have been able to find from those who advocate for it Almost every person who has written about this ... more
- Not really — Gary Roberts, Thu Apr 19 07:48Nick, I can't know for sure, because we can only speculate about what might have happened if Sheriff Behan hadn't shown up. My general belief has been that Billy was anxious to leave and that the... more
- hitching posts — Pam Potter, Thu Apr 19 07:10Since it appears from photographs that there were no hitching rails on the street, it was a misdemeanor to tie your horse to a tree, and I get the impression that people were encouraged to take their ... more
- hitching post — bfrey, Wed Apr 25 05:54I see in the rebuilt Bauer's market photo that there is a very big log type post to the right of the building. I don't know if it was there orginally but, it is there in this photo. Is this a... more
- really enjoy these observations.. (nm) — bfrey, Thu Apr 19 08:50
- Good point, Pam — Gary Roberts, Thu Apr 19 07:52Furthermore, why would he leave the horse on the street when he could just have easily tied the horse off at the vacant lot until the others arrived?
- Was there testimony on Oct 26? — Geraldo, Thu Apr 19 11:21Gary, This morning I reviewed Billy Claiborne's testimony before the Coroner's Inquest and at the Spicer Hearing to see if there was anything I had previously overlooked that might clarify the route... more
- My guess is.... — Jeff Morey, Thu Apr 19 22:53Jerry, My guess is that Coroner Matthews initiated preliminary interviews with potential witnesses in order to determine which witnesses should later be called at the Coroner's Inquest. Exactly how... more
- I think that's right — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 05:20Matthews talked to the people that were on the scene that day, and based on those initial conversations put together a witness list for the inquest. The most curious thing about the coroner's inquest ... more
- Two possibilities.. — Jeff Morey, Fri Apr 20 08:32Gary, Two possibilities arise as to why the police involved in the shooting were not called to testify in the Coroner's inquest: 1.) Behan successfully managed to manipulate Matthews in the selection ... more
- Re: Two possibilities.. — harveycmd, Fri Apr 20 09:09Jeff, Is it realistic to think that the Earps were already conferring with Fitch within a couple of hours of the street fight? I don't know, maybe they were, but I have never seen anything on it.... more
- I will look forward to your answer and appreciate it. — Tom Gaumer, Wed Apr 18 13:26Gary I understood there was no information on how the cowboys proceeded once in the OK Corral but Coleman gave a clue. As you know Sills is the only one who testified to seeing the cowboys standing... more
- business at Bauer's — paulj, Wed Apr 18 11:02Gary. Tom had business that he transacted earlier at the Eagle Meat market on Allen - that was when the witnesses (Gardner and Bilicke) saw him emerge with a bulge in his pants pocket. He certainly... more
- Bauer's meat — bfrey, Sat Apr 21 13:43If you look at the old photos of Bauer's you get a sense that it was a small building with no awnings, a large window in front, and a small porch/sidewalk. King says that she stepped into the outer... more
- Bauer's big store — Geraldo, Sun Apr 22 07:04Those old photos of "Bauer's" have been deceiving many of us for quite some time. The building that was there at the time of the gunfight was much larger. About a year and a half ago, Gary McLelland... more
- Jerry, you are correct — Gary Roberts, Sun Apr 22 07:35The usually used photos of Bauer's are of the rebuilt store taken many years later (see the one in Lake's book, for example). Mrs. King was pretty explicit as to where she was. She said that the... more
- The building from the 1930's is not original? — bfrey, Sun Apr 22 07:25http://www.charlieosborn.com/walker-tombstone-az/index.shtml Here is a link with some photos from Walker in the 30"s showing some locations we have been talking about. Thanks
- May 26, 1882 fire — Geraldo, Sun Apr 22 08:48Somewhere I've seen a map that shows the area that was destroyed in the 1882 fire. Been looking for it, but can't find it. As I remember, the fire stopped west of Bauer's(which it destroyed), but... more
- The original Oriental... — bfrey, Sun Apr 22 12:47I was going through some of Bob Bell's books and found a picture of the original Oriental bar before the fire. It had several very tall doors that seem to stand open to allow easy in and out access.... more
- Double doors — Geraldo, Sun Apr 22 13:18Yes, I've seen those photos. The great photo Gary McLelland provided was taken from quite a distance, so it was not easy to see in detail. To me, it looked like there were two doors in the center of... more
- Doors on the Oriental — bfrey, Wed Apr 25 10:51I counted a set of 4 doors along the front of the building, and one at the corner. Think two on the side of 5th street from a drawing of the building. That was a large open air gambling den, easy in... more
- double doors — bfrey, Mon Apr 23 04:22Yes, the high doors, over 10ft high, I think there was two doors facing main street, and of course the corner door that Claiborne was waiting in front. Years ago I was standing at the side entrance... more
- Interesting that they misidentified Fly's in one picture — Tom Gaumer, Sun Apr 22 11:07Geraldo I guess they did that because they thought the fight was in the entrance of the O.K. Corral and they knew fly's was involved. Thus i guess they merged those two thoughts, maybe? Interesting... more
- Bullet holes in the wall! — Geraldo, Sun Apr 22 12:48Tom, Many, many, many years ago, when I was just a pup, I remember seeing similar photos in books about "The Old West" in the public library. I remember that the caption under one picture stated,... more
- I suspect — Gary Roberts, Tue Apr 24 07:23The book you remember that caption from was Lake's. Lake was arguing that the fight took place there. If that was the case, the Papago Cash Store had to be Fly's and the adobe couldn't be Bauer's.
- Picture imperfect — Geraldo, Tue Apr 24 09:17Gary, That was probably it. The only time I read Lake's book was when I checked it out of the library those many years ago. I think I saw another book there on old west or Arizona history with one of ... more
- print. — bfrey, Thu Apr 26 05:40http://books.google.com/books?id=ErqLajyt0DkC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=victor+clyde+forsythe+ok+corral&source=bl&ots=sV0Kxk9VtA&sig=e33KZoCwRmXujqurWW64BY30fuc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k0-ZT8fELcbGgAfi-4TOBg&ved=0CE4... more
- Another interesting painting — Geraldo, Thu Apr 26 06:15Bruce, Thanks for the link to the painting. Although it was done by Forsythe, it's not the same one that was in the issue of Wild West magazine. There are similarities, but that one was more detailed ... more
- I have — bfrey, Thu Apr 26 07:24Don Perceval's print that I really like.
- illustrations — bfrey, Wed Apr 25 11:25I just saw a picture of Tombstone with the original buildings marked. You can make out Bauers and see a partial bit of a overhang that covered the front sidewalk area.
- How could it have been misspent, look at the results:-) (nm) — Tom Gaumer, Mon Apr 23 10:05
- The town was well aroused . . . — Gary Roberts, Wed Apr 18 12:10to the "threat" well before the cowboys reached Fremont Street. All of the movements on Allen and Fourth, as well as the reports that the cowboys as a group had moved into the O. K. Corral were the... more
- I believe there is a photo — bfrey, Wed Apr 18 08:27Of this back route that is cluttered in junk, taken around the 30's. It is a very interesting photo and may have had some type of marker designating it as the route?
