Peter Love
substantive discussion
Thu Apr 19, 2012 21:47
Hi Bruce and Gary
Yes, I think this should be posted separately, and thanks Gary for the Epitaph version, which I had never seen. And those are good points.
In the discussion about Marcus Smith (quite reasonable to raise IMHO, Bruce), the issue was that it was only a supposition by Hayhurst. It got me to wondering whether Hayhurs's identification had been accepted uncritically for others. For example, it is accepted that Frank was the man with the horse outside the butchers, largely on Hayhurst. OK, that would fit with Behan's account, and Kehoe's that Frank had held the lines from leaving the shop to his death. But Kehoe also says he had been talking to frank AND Tom outside his shop.
King's Epitaph version raises the possibility there had been two horses (and presumably two cowboys) at some point while she was in the shop. This meshes better with Kehoe. Is it possible that Tom went down to join the others a little before Behan arrived (but Tom didn't have a horse, it's driving me mad!). I have often thought things were probably more confused and fluid than button-down testimonies show. These guys were not writing essays, they could overlook a detail, without it being a case of perjury.
Gary, I'll take a punt. That question whether "you will find us below here" was to Holliday or Earp was a head feint by the Prosecution. They knew it wasn't, the point being that the cowboys were NOT inviting the Earps down for a fight. Indeed, they were leaving it open for Smith - or whoever- to come on down, so he must not have thought it would turn into a battleground.
Finally, I think one thing clealy emerges from King's testimony; that is Frank (?) had only been down in the lot, I guess with Behan, only minutes before the shooting. In other words, the Earps were hot on Behan's heels.
Good stuff, Bruce.
Pete
Yes, I think this should be posted separately, and thanks Gary for the Epitaph version, which I had never seen. And those are good points.
In the discussion about Marcus Smith (quite reasonable to raise IMHO, Bruce), the issue was that it was only a supposition by Hayhurst. It got me to wondering whether Hayhurs's identification had been accepted uncritically for others. For example, it is accepted that Frank was the man with the horse outside the butchers, largely on Hayhurst. OK, that would fit with Behan's account, and Kehoe's that Frank had held the lines from leaving the shop to his death. But Kehoe also says he had been talking to frank AND Tom outside his shop.
King's Epitaph version raises the possibility there had been two horses (and presumably two cowboys) at some point while she was in the shop. This meshes better with Kehoe. Is it possible that Tom went down to join the others a little before Behan arrived (but Tom didn't have a horse, it's driving me mad!). I have often thought things were probably more confused and fluid than button-down testimonies show. These guys were not writing essays, they could overlook a detail, without it being a case of perjury.
Gary, I'll take a punt. That question whether "you will find us below here" was to Holliday or Earp was a head feint by the Prosecution. They knew it wasn't, the point being that the cowboys were NOT inviting the Earps down for a fight. Indeed, they were leaving it open for Smith - or whoever- to come on down, so he must not have thought it would turn into a battleground.
Finally, I think one thing clealy emerges from King's testimony; that is Frank (?) had only been down in the lot, I guess with Behan, only minutes before the shooting. In other words, the Earps were hot on Behan's heels.
Good stuff, Bruce.
Pete
- Dr. Roberts post "Help me with something here" — bfrey, Thu Apr 19 15:22Dr. Roberts post asks several very interesting questions and poses some questions. Part of this was in response to my Mark Smith Tall man comments. The post has several intriguing aspects and I was... more
- Help me with something here, revised — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 06:03Sheriff Behan testified that after leaving Virgil Earp at Hafford's, "I then went down Fourth street to the corner of Fremont, and I met there Frank McLowry holding a horse and talking to somebody."... more
- a stab at #3 — K.t.K., Fri Apr 20 07:233. Is it plausible that Sheriff Behan would have called someone as prominent as Mark Smith, "somebody?" Sure, if he didn’t want to draw attention for a private reason already mentioned. Lawyers... more
- cahoots — bfrey, Fri Apr 20 10:17It seems probable that he would not want to mention Smith during testimony. Smith did not wish to be dragged into this matter in any form. If Behan mentioned Smith specifically, that would give a... more
- That's possible — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 10:04The only thing is that Behan tended to be very specific when mentioning individuals, and Frank talking to Smith might have even helped the cowboys' case if they were all in cahoots. Interesting, in... more
- thanks for reposting... and a couple of things — bfrey, Fri Apr 20 07:14It is obvious from King's account that the person Frank was walking with and talking to seperated at Bauer's. Frank going down and the other man going up to the post office. It is unclear to me if... more
- correction — Peter Christoph, Sat Apr 21 15:38Actually, I think you have it backwards as to who Mrs. King recognized (not "knew"). She recognized the town marshal and recognized that the other two were his brothers, but did not know their names. ... more
- Re: correction — Peter Christoph, Sun Apr 22 05:18My apologies. I was thinking of Addie Borland's statement. Wrong lady. Peter
- What I have is...... — bfrey, Sat Apr 21 16:43"I only knew one of the party and that was Doc Holliday, there were 3 other men with him and I was told it was the Earp's" What is interesting is the conversation that the man leading the horse is... more
- Movement — Gary Roberts, Sun Apr 22 07:25Mrs. King said almost nothing about the movement of the man with the horse and the tall man until cross examination during the Spicer hearing. Her testimony at the Coroner's Inquest is more... more
- movement... — bfrey, Sun Apr 22 08:15To me it appears the man with the horse is walking past Bauers, talking to the tall man, who I assume is casually walking with him? He was in the "act of leading his horse-when he turned to the other ... more
- Re: thanks for reposting... and a couple of things — Peter Love, Fri Apr 20 17:22Hi Bruce I found that King comment "I could not say" curious, too. But I think she probably just meant she could not be sure who it had been said to. Logic says she knew it was not Holliday as it was ... more
- What I find most curious . . . — Gary Roberts, Sat Apr 21 04:55is the question itself. The prosecution didn't reallhy give her any other option--something like "or somebody else," for example. It is the prosecution's intent that puzzles me. Best!
- I think you are right on with that Peter — bfrey, Fri Apr 20 19:08Interesting observations. I have testified in court many times and have seen some bizarre scenarios. After awhile you learn that the truth of the matter and what you know is most important and that... more
- Now to really stir things up — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 10:25My guess is that if Frank met the sheriff at the corner, and if the man he was talking to at the corner walked with Frank and the Sheriff, they were not with a group. They might have come upon a... more
- Frank held those reins the whole time? — bfrey, Mon Apr 23 16:54If Frank is the person leading the horse pass Bauer's he held those reins until he was shot dead. Some have speculated it was a green horse or half broke in. I know the least about horses on this... more
- Yes — Gary Roberts, Tue Apr 24 07:13From the time he arrived in Tombstone, Frank appears to have kept his horse close at hand. The only exceptions were times when he went into a business. He left his horse outside when he went into... more
- question.. — bfrey, Mon Apr 30 10:13If a person's strong hand is the one he uses, could we assume that to control a horse, and be comfortable you would use your right hand.(if your right handed) Most people do use the hand they are... more
- My guess . . . — Gary Roberts, Mon Apr 30 12:30is that given the circumstances, he was holding the reins in his left hand. Experienced frontiersmen, not just gunners, understood the mechanics of confrontation well enough to keep their gunhands... more
- Horse sense — Pam Potter, Tue May 1 05:11Generally speaking you walk on the horses left, thus holding the reins in your right hand, otherwise the reins would be across your body. Experienced horsemen at least today, know that a horse needs... more
- Perfect sense — Gary Roberts, Tue May 1 07:09Thanks Pam. I knew you'd set us straight. Best!
- I would bow to the horse experts.. — bfrey, Mon Apr 30 13:20It is an interesting consideration. I differ with you in that I don't believe the cowboys were any more expecting a gunfight than the Earp's did. I believe I have heard you state previously that the... more
- I see it differently — Gary Roberts, Tue May 1 05:52While I believe that the fight was something both sides hoped to avoid, I believe that each side expected the worst from the other. I believe that the Earps thought that the cowboys were on the prod... more
- Expected a fight — Tom Gaumer, Tue May 1 09:47Gary I can see an arguement the Earp's expected a fight as each were armed and ready and they were going after the cowboys. I cannot understand the case for the cowboys expecting a fight as Ike was... more
- Does it? — Gary Roberts, Tue May 1 12:52Then why was Billy so anxious to get Ike out of town? There is a difference between BEING PREPARED for a fight and EXPECTING a fight. If the cowboys weren't expecting a fight, they were the only men... more
- Expectations-confrontation or gunfight — Tom Gaumer, Tue May 1 22:13Gary The Earps EXPECTED it could easily become a gunfight and their PREPARATIONS show that. The cowboys didn't know whether to expect a gunfight or additional confrontations like the ones that... more
- O. K. Tom — Gary Roberts, Wed May 2 11:40I'll accept confrontation over gunfight. It is a more accurate term for what I had in mind. Trouble may even be better. I never used the term gunfight, just fight, but I'm sure it implied gunfight.... more
- Great Gary. Welcome to interesting, sinful speculation! — Tom Gaumer, Thu May 3 00:20I can't explain why Frank was at the corner. Checking on the Earps seems unlikely to me. However I've always thought the Earps should have sent someone to check on what was happening on Fremont... more
- Frank — bfrey, Tue Apr 24 09:13I find your point that Frank might not be the man holding the horse in front of Bauer's interesting for sure. I don't think Frank was ready for a fight. A man getting ready for mortal combat would... more
- spot on Bruce, great post (nm) — Peter Love, Sat Apr 28 06:26
- AND NOT ONLY THAT — Peter Love, Sat Apr 28 06:46Nobody from the other side had actually TALKED to Frank in this whole saga. He came into town, heard the entire story (friend based, brother bashed) and then the same guy who smashed his young... more
- where does Mr. J Doling or Dolling come into this? — bfrey, Mon Apr 23 11:34Ike was talking to him just before the gunfight or stepped into a bar with him. Does he figure into this occasion somehow?
- Doling — Gary Roberts, Tue Apr 24 05:23Coleman's testimony indicated that Ike spoke to Doling in front of Dexter's Corral before Ike crossed the street into the O. K. Corral. This would be well before the cowboys emerged on Fremont Street.
- Brilliant, Gary — paulj, Mon Apr 23 06:23Gary, It's possible as you describe. Tom was standing by Billy's horse in the empty lot. Would Ike have taken to leading Frank's horse? Frank's horse was said by some source to have been "half broke" ... more
- This scenario assumes . . . — Gary Roberts, Mon Apr 23 12:51that Frank has his horse with him somewhere between Bauer's and the corner of Fourth and Fremont where he met Behan. I don't believe he ever let go the reins unless he went into a store. That is why... more
- Re: Brilliant, Gary — Pam Potter, Mon Apr 23 08:19What this conversation points out, is that we have not explored all the possibilities and that there could be even more scenarios if we had additional information. There has to be so much more that... more
- the tall man — Peter Christoph, Wed Apr 25 20:13I get confused trying to keep track of who was where and when, so this musing may be totally off track. Billy Clanton was the tallest person around by far, something like 6' 5" or 6' 7", as I... more
- 6'5" or 6'7"? — Jeff Morey, Thu Apr 26 08:12Peter, Billy Clanton was 6'5" or 6'7". Are you kidding? My Best, Jeff Morey
- Re: the tall man — Gary Roberts, Thu Apr 26 05:18The tall man was someone who walked away from Bauer's toward Fourth Street in the direction of the Post Office. That almost certainly was not Billy Clanton. There's no evidence Billy ever went in... more
- It would explain a lot (nm) — Peter Love, Sat Apr 21 03:36
- substantive discussion — Peter Love, Thu Apr 19 21:47
- Discussion — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 05:46First, I'll move the post. Second, with respect to Frank's movements, you have to bring Behan into the picture. Behan's testimony is the key testimony regarding Frank. I'm not offering this even as... more
- This is interesting and may have been missed.... — bfrey, Fri Apr 20 05:16admittedly the Earl Chafin version of Adelias memoirs on page 12: "About Lake's book: The boys I know were bitter at Mark Smith because he saw the fight {Shootout at he O.K. Corral] and knew what... more
- aside — Peter Love, Mon Apr 23 01:04HI Bruce You might be interested that Smith aside, Ben Goodrich in the 1915 Epitaph claimed to have wiitnessed the "assassination". For mine, that Adelia quote is b.s. Smith doesn't sound like any... more
- One small correction, Bruce. — Bob Cash, Fri Apr 20 19:46Tom Gaumer posted the Adelia Earp quote, originally. All I did was re-post it.
- Thanks, I stand corrected. (nm) — bfrey, Sat Apr 21 06:25
- I responded to this below — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 05:50before seeing this post. The main point is that nobody questions whether Smith saw something that day. He was called as a witness and excused. BUT, whether Adelia's memoir is authentic or not, what... more
