Gary Roberts
Movement
Sun Apr 22, 2012 07:25
Mrs. King said almost nothing about the movement of the man with the horse and the tall man until cross examination during the Spicer hearing. Her testimony at the Coroner's Inquest is more particular:
"I was coming from my house to Bauer's meat market to get some meat for dinner. I saw quite a number of men standing in a group together on the sidewalk by the door of the market, and I passed on into the shop to get what I went for, and the parties in the shop were excited and did not seem to want to wait upon me. I inquired what was the matter, and they said there was about to be a fuss between the Earp boys and the cowboys. I was standing back at the time they said it. I stepped to the door of the market and I heard someone talking but did not understand at first what they said.
"Then the party seemed to separate and this man who was standing with the horse; he was in the act of leading his horse--when he turned to the other man who was talking to him and looked up at the man and said, 'If you wish to find us, you will find us just below here.' That is all I saw at this time. The tall man who was talking to the man with thed horse went down the street. . . ."
She does not make it clear whether the man with the horse and the tall man were part of the group originally and tne moved away or whether the crowd separated as they came through.
Before Spicer, this matter came up in a limited way. In fact, her statement is interesting, picking up in the middle, "Holliday said, 'All right.' I heard nothing else before that. I heard concerning the other parties what was told me by the butchers. The other parties said: 'If they want us, they can find us.' When I heard the remark I ran, being frightened, into the shop. I got as far as the blocks, in the middle of the shop, about twenty feet, when I heard shots."--EPITAPH, November 5, 1881.
She offered some clarification in the cross-examination, as previously presented--but little about the movement of the man with the horse and the tall man before they split up.
By the way, Mrs. King's testimony makes it clear what the mood was at Bauer's, both inside and out. To what extent did this mood, which included the expectation of a fight, affect or influence Mrs. King's response?
"I was coming from my house to Bauer's meat market to get some meat for dinner. I saw quite a number of men standing in a group together on the sidewalk by the door of the market, and I passed on into the shop to get what I went for, and the parties in the shop were excited and did not seem to want to wait upon me. I inquired what was the matter, and they said there was about to be a fuss between the Earp boys and the cowboys. I was standing back at the time they said it. I stepped to the door of the market and I heard someone talking but did not understand at first what they said.
"Then the party seemed to separate and this man who was standing with the horse; he was in the act of leading his horse--when he turned to the other man who was talking to him and looked up at the man and said, 'If you wish to find us, you will find us just below here.' That is all I saw at this time. The tall man who was talking to the man with thed horse went down the street. . . ."
She does not make it clear whether the man with the horse and the tall man were part of the group originally and tne moved away or whether the crowd separated as they came through.
Before Spicer, this matter came up in a limited way. In fact, her statement is interesting, picking up in the middle, "Holliday said, 'All right.' I heard nothing else before that. I heard concerning the other parties what was told me by the butchers. The other parties said: 'If they want us, they can find us.' When I heard the remark I ran, being frightened, into the shop. I got as far as the blocks, in the middle of the shop, about twenty feet, when I heard shots."--EPITAPH, November 5, 1881.
She offered some clarification in the cross-examination, as previously presented--but little about the movement of the man with the horse and the tall man before they split up.
By the way, Mrs. King's testimony makes it clear what the mood was at Bauer's, both inside and out. To what extent did this mood, which included the expectation of a fight, affect or influence Mrs. King's response?
- Dr. Roberts post "Help me with something here" — bfrey, Thu Apr 19 15:22Dr. Roberts post asks several very interesting questions and poses some questions. Part of this was in response to my Mark Smith Tall man comments. The post has several intriguing aspects and I was... more
- Help me with something here, revised — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 06:03Sheriff Behan testified that after leaving Virgil Earp at Hafford's, "I then went down Fourth street to the corner of Fremont, and I met there Frank McLowry holding a horse and talking to somebody."... more
- a stab at #3 — K.t.K., Fri Apr 20 07:233. Is it plausible that Sheriff Behan would have called someone as prominent as Mark Smith, "somebody?" Sure, if he didn’t want to draw attention for a private reason already mentioned. Lawyers... more
- cahoots — bfrey, Fri Apr 20 10:17It seems probable that he would not want to mention Smith during testimony. Smith did not wish to be dragged into this matter in any form. If Behan mentioned Smith specifically, that would give a... more
- That's possible — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 10:04The only thing is that Behan tended to be very specific when mentioning individuals, and Frank talking to Smith might have even helped the cowboys' case if they were all in cahoots. Interesting, in... more
- thanks for reposting... and a couple of things — bfrey, Fri Apr 20 07:14It is obvious from King's account that the person Frank was walking with and talking to seperated at Bauer's. Frank going down and the other man going up to the post office. It is unclear to me if... more
- correction — Peter Christoph, Sat Apr 21 15:38Actually, I think you have it backwards as to who Mrs. King recognized (not "knew"). She recognized the town marshal and recognized that the other two were his brothers, but did not know their names. ... more
- Re: correction — Peter Christoph, Sun Apr 22 05:18My apologies. I was thinking of Addie Borland's statement. Wrong lady. Peter
- What I have is...... — bfrey, Sat Apr 21 16:43"I only knew one of the party and that was Doc Holliday, there were 3 other men with him and I was told it was the Earp's" What is interesting is the conversation that the man leading the horse is... more
- Movement — Gary Roberts, Sun Apr 22 07:25
- movement... — bfrey, Sun Apr 22 08:15To me it appears the man with the horse is walking past Bauers, talking to the tall man, who I assume is casually walking with him? He was in the "act of leading his horse-when he turned to the other ... more
- Re: thanks for reposting... and a couple of things — Peter Love, Fri Apr 20 17:22Hi Bruce I found that King comment "I could not say" curious, too. But I think she probably just meant she could not be sure who it had been said to. Logic says she knew it was not Holliday as it was ... more
- What I find most curious . . . — Gary Roberts, Sat Apr 21 04:55is the question itself. The prosecution didn't reallhy give her any other option--something like "or somebody else," for example. It is the prosecution's intent that puzzles me. Best!
- I think you are right on with that Peter — bfrey, Fri Apr 20 19:08Interesting observations. I have testified in court many times and have seen some bizarre scenarios. After awhile you learn that the truth of the matter and what you know is most important and that... more
- Now to really stir things up — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 10:25My guess is that if Frank met the sheriff at the corner, and if the man he was talking to at the corner walked with Frank and the Sheriff, they were not with a group. They might have come upon a... more
- Frank held those reins the whole time? — bfrey, Mon Apr 23 16:54If Frank is the person leading the horse pass Bauer's he held those reins until he was shot dead. Some have speculated it was a green horse or half broke in. I know the least about horses on this... more
- Yes — Gary Roberts, Tue Apr 24 07:13From the time he arrived in Tombstone, Frank appears to have kept his horse close at hand. The only exceptions were times when he went into a business. He left his horse outside when he went into... more
- question.. — bfrey, Mon Apr 30 10:13If a person's strong hand is the one he uses, could we assume that to control a horse, and be comfortable you would use your right hand.(if your right handed) Most people do use the hand they are... more
- My guess . . . — Gary Roberts, Mon Apr 30 12:30is that given the circumstances, he was holding the reins in his left hand. Experienced frontiersmen, not just gunners, understood the mechanics of confrontation well enough to keep their gunhands... more
- Horse sense — Pam Potter, Tue May 1 05:11Generally speaking you walk on the horses left, thus holding the reins in your right hand, otherwise the reins would be across your body. Experienced horsemen at least today, know that a horse needs... more
- Perfect sense — Gary Roberts, Tue May 1 07:09Thanks Pam. I knew you'd set us straight. Best!
- I would bow to the horse experts.. — bfrey, Mon Apr 30 13:20It is an interesting consideration. I differ with you in that I don't believe the cowboys were any more expecting a gunfight than the Earp's did. I believe I have heard you state previously that the... more
- I see it differently — Gary Roberts, Tue May 1 05:52While I believe that the fight was something both sides hoped to avoid, I believe that each side expected the worst from the other. I believe that the Earps thought that the cowboys were on the prod... more
- Expected a fight — Tom Gaumer, Tue May 1 09:47Gary I can see an arguement the Earp's expected a fight as each were armed and ready and they were going after the cowboys. I cannot understand the case for the cowboys expecting a fight as Ike was... more
- Does it? — Gary Roberts, Tue May 1 12:52Then why was Billy so anxious to get Ike out of town? There is a difference between BEING PREPARED for a fight and EXPECTING a fight. If the cowboys weren't expecting a fight, they were the only men... more
- Expectations-confrontation or gunfight — Tom Gaumer, Tue May 1 22:13Gary The Earps EXPECTED it could easily become a gunfight and their PREPARATIONS show that. The cowboys didn't know whether to expect a gunfight or additional confrontations like the ones that... more
- O. K. Tom — Gary Roberts, Wed May 2 11:40I'll accept confrontation over gunfight. It is a more accurate term for what I had in mind. Trouble may even be better. I never used the term gunfight, just fight, but I'm sure it implied gunfight.... more
- Great Gary. Welcome to interesting, sinful speculation! — Tom Gaumer, Thu May 3 00:20I can't explain why Frank was at the corner. Checking on the Earps seems unlikely to me. However I've always thought the Earps should have sent someone to check on what was happening on Fremont... more
- Frank — bfrey, Tue Apr 24 09:13I find your point that Frank might not be the man holding the horse in front of Bauer's interesting for sure. I don't think Frank was ready for a fight. A man getting ready for mortal combat would... more
- spot on Bruce, great post (nm) — Peter Love, Sat Apr 28 06:26
- AND NOT ONLY THAT — Peter Love, Sat Apr 28 06:46Nobody from the other side had actually TALKED to Frank in this whole saga. He came into town, heard the entire story (friend based, brother bashed) and then the same guy who smashed his young... more
- where does Mr. J Doling or Dolling come into this? — bfrey, Mon Apr 23 11:34Ike was talking to him just before the gunfight or stepped into a bar with him. Does he figure into this occasion somehow?
- Doling — Gary Roberts, Tue Apr 24 05:23Coleman's testimony indicated that Ike spoke to Doling in front of Dexter's Corral before Ike crossed the street into the O. K. Corral. This would be well before the cowboys emerged on Fremont Street.
- Brilliant, Gary — paulj, Mon Apr 23 06:23Gary, It's possible as you describe. Tom was standing by Billy's horse in the empty lot. Would Ike have taken to leading Frank's horse? Frank's horse was said by some source to have been "half broke" ... more
- This scenario assumes . . . — Gary Roberts, Mon Apr 23 12:51that Frank has his horse with him somewhere between Bauer's and the corner of Fourth and Fremont where he met Behan. I don't believe he ever let go the reins unless he went into a store. That is why... more
- Re: Brilliant, Gary — Pam Potter, Mon Apr 23 08:19What this conversation points out, is that we have not explored all the possibilities and that there could be even more scenarios if we had additional information. There has to be so much more that... more
- the tall man — Peter Christoph, Wed Apr 25 20:13I get confused trying to keep track of who was where and when, so this musing may be totally off track. Billy Clanton was the tallest person around by far, something like 6' 5" or 6' 7", as I... more
- 6'5" or 6'7"? — Jeff Morey, Thu Apr 26 08:12Peter, Billy Clanton was 6'5" or 6'7". Are you kidding? My Best, Jeff Morey
- Re: the tall man — Gary Roberts, Thu Apr 26 05:18The tall man was someone who walked away from Bauer's toward Fourth Street in the direction of the Post Office. That almost certainly was not Billy Clanton. There's no evidence Billy ever went in... more
- It would explain a lot (nm) — Peter Love, Sat Apr 21 03:36
- substantive discussion — Peter Love, Thu Apr 19 21:47Hi Bruce and Gary Yes, I think this should be posted separately, and thanks Gary for the Epitaph version, which I had never seen. And those are good points. In the discussion about Marcus Smith... more
- Discussion — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 05:46First, I'll move the post. Second, with respect to Frank's movements, you have to bring Behan into the picture. Behan's testimony is the key testimony regarding Frank. I'm not offering this even as... more
- This is interesting and may have been missed.... — bfrey, Fri Apr 20 05:16admittedly the Earl Chafin version of Adelias memoirs on page 12: "About Lake's book: The boys I know were bitter at Mark Smith because he saw the fight {Shootout at he O.K. Corral] and knew what... more
- aside — Peter Love, Mon Apr 23 01:04HI Bruce You might be interested that Smith aside, Ben Goodrich in the 1915 Epitaph claimed to have wiitnessed the "assassination". For mine, that Adelia quote is b.s. Smith doesn't sound like any... more
- One small correction, Bruce. — Bob Cash, Fri Apr 20 19:46Tom Gaumer posted the Adelia Earp quote, originally. All I did was re-post it.
- Thanks, I stand corrected. (nm) — bfrey, Sat Apr 21 06:25
- I responded to this below — Gary Roberts, Fri Apr 20 05:50before seeing this post. The main point is that nobody questions whether Smith saw something that day. He was called as a witness and excused. BUT, whether Adelia's memoir is authentic or not, what... more
