I think one could argue the point that Doc was involved in a criminal syndicate known as the "Dodge City gang". All bunko artists were not stage robbers, but had other outlying contributions to the activities.
Doc was an associate and friend of Jordan Webb, a known member of the Dodge gang. He operated a bar with him and also received significant help in judicial proceedings from the leader of this group, Hoodo Brown.
After Doc turned over his saloon, for financial concerns he stayed in Las Vegas and continued to gamble and associate with all these members.
Numerous robberies occurred during this time, not to mention several stage holdups, one in which Doc's partner, Webb was charged with. These stage robberies in my opinion are a blueprint of some of the same robberies that occurred around Tombstone. If given the chance someday, it would be interesting to compare there m.o. I know they took place just outside of the town and in one instance 3 men participated in one of the stage robberies. So you have Webb and Doc down and out in Las Vegas, part of a criminal syndicate, and Webb is arrested for stage robbery. I guess you could argue either way, just like Tombstone, that Doc was involved in it somehow or he kept himself clean? "Bunko Stuff" goes hand and hand in maintaining criminal activity and certainly could easily branch out to holdups. The holdups themselves would need others to plan and support the participants.
As to the Kate question which is very intriguing, a spouse apparently could not testify against their partner. Marieta Duarte,the wife of Pete Spence, had her testimony objected to based on that very legal principal.
One final note, Wyatt was hanging around Las Vegas with Doc on and off before finally heading out to Tombstone. He also kept himself above suspicion. Did Wyatt ever hold a law position in Las Vegas?
According to old man Fuller, Doc caught up with him at 4 pm, hitched his horse to his wagon and entered Tombstone at 6pm. The Benson stage did not even leave Tombstone until 7pm that night. Further... more
bfrey If Doc thought he would need an alibi, would he not have set one up? Indisputable evidence would be nice now but, I think unlikely now. I doubt Doc needed one as the prosecutor couldn't find... more
I find it strange Doc sat in a wagon with Old Man Fuller to ride back to Tombstone. Even tho Fuller claims Doc was with him the time he claims does not exclude Doc from anything. The evidence the... more
bfrey Assume you are right that Old Man Fuller's undocumented I think, remembrance does not exclude Doc from anything. It doesn't include doc in any attack on th stage either. Would you find the ride ... more
That being a partner with J.J Webb and having him being charged in stage robbery was a connection? How is it that Doc is around certain individuals that end up robbing stages for there funds. Is this ... more
bfrey Suppose Kate did not recant. What that she said would convince a jury to convict Doc of having participated in the stage attack? Could we say: Lots of people knew J.J,Webb and lots knew Bill... more
bfrey Could you provide the source where Kate said Doc told her about his involvment in the Benson stage attack? On pages 154,155,156,157,158,453 and 454 of Gary Roberts book about Doc, the subject... more
Not to throw them out here willy nilly without support. As I recall it was from another Doc biography and I believe it was "Doc Holliday: A Family Portrait by Karen Holliday Tanner and Robert K... more
Thanks bfrey. I found it in Karen Tanners book. Karen’s conclusion concerning Doc and the attack on the stage in her book can best be stated in these words from page 153, “Doc had spent most of his... more
How can a stage coach robbery be considered "a failure" and "bungled" Assuming that was actually the motive? Robbing a stage coach is extremely easy. Using a trip wire or shooting one horse will stop ... more
I would venture to guess there are two considerations in this attempt, bushwhacking or robbery. Why would you need 4 men to get a crack at Paul if that is what your trying to do? I think robbing a... more
(Hi Tom) ...Doc's witnesses (alibi) were gamblers. Just like the Cowboys, the Gamblers always covered their own. Ergo look at the lineup of sports Wyatt had to back-up claims of Frank McClaury's... more
Gamblers, pimps and other sharps can be relied on for their honesty. I have no idea whether Doc participated in that bungled robbery or not. However, I don't need witnesses to tell me not to trust a... more
I said you would have to call witnesses that witnessed Doc's activities. As he was part of the saloon crowd and spent his time there, calling witnesses from church or the hospital or the Chamber of... more
Tom I had thought of that, too. But there were ordinary citizens who frequented these places too. It would be more convincing if the witnesses were not from the inner circle. The witnesses in the... more
Peter "Ergo look at the lineup of sports Wyatt had to back-up claims of Frank McClaury's threats, in the hearing." None of the ones you listed were witnesses "in the hearing." I guess I misunderstood ... more
bfrey, Please explain what Las Vegas activities you are referring to. As for "bunko stuff", what does that have to do with stage robberies? Were all bunko artists also stage robbers? The question... more
Yes, it was a crime syndicate operating at Las Vegas but in actuality being a splinter group of the orginal "gang" at Dodge. Although there were many charter members from Dodge at Las vegas we don't... more
In doing some on-line research I came across this link by Kenny. On the bottom is list gang members such as Bill Tilghman, James and Bat Materson, and Neil Brown to name a few. I have done extensive... more
Gary makes a pretty good case that Doc was not considered a member of the Las Vegas version of the Dodge City Gang by the citizens who had run them out of town on threat of death. For Doc to have... more
Let's see: Doc is a verified member of the Dodge City Gang, before and after Las Vegas, but he is not a member of Las Vegas version of the Dodge City Gang. Hmmm. Let me run this by my 8-year-old... more
Bob, it is, and was common knowledge that one faction in the gamblers war in Tombstone (1880-81) was staffed with fighting men of Dodge City fame, a.k.a. “the Easterners.” Opposition gamblers were... more
K.t.K., Your response to my question was impressively presented, but I am still not clear on what exactly distinguished a "gang" from a "syndicate" in the late 1870s and early 1880s. Was the "Dodge... more
My trusty 1864 Websters wasn’t much help. “SYNDICATE: A council, or body of syndics; a branch of government.” (evidently a syndic referred to an agent or officer of corporation.) The modern day... more
Kenny, I still suspect the employment of the term : "criminal syndicate" may be somewhat misapplied because of it's current implication of a broad network spread out over some geographical distance.... more
There are many fascinating re-connections and cross-connections for Dodge City Gang alumni all over the map. For instance its never been published about why Doc Holliday in July 1882 stopped several... more
Kenny, I think you and I may have corresponded about this previously. For others, I did some research on Bat's time in BV and wrote two articles about him on Colorado Central Magazine, issues of... more
Bat and Luke Short had both been in Leadville. There's no coincidence they were with the horde of bunko men forced to leave Leadville in spring 1880 and who came to Buena Vista in order to set up... more
Where did 'HooDoo Brown' end up after he fled with his wife from Las Vegas, N.M. in March 1880? Back to Colorado, where, from the early 1870s he was known from top to bottom. First destination was... more
Hello, Charles. Do you have any names associated with the bunco men? I would love to learn who some of them were, which could help me lead you to more information. Bat was very chummy with the Denver ... more
Hi, jeff. Yes, I have some names of the bunco crowd. I'll email you separately with the info, and send you some contemporary reporting on the BV troubles. I have a lot of research stored away and... more
Peter, You cite a book you don't have and can't check before you post? That is a very risky approach. Actually, Lake claims there were three witnesses who testified: Doc Holliday "Old Man" Fuller... more
Jeff, ...but I wasn't writing a thesis. And as you said before, it doesn't make any difference at all, if Doc participated in the stage robbery. But after your post, it bugged me, so I went down to... more
Bruce But Wes was a gambler, his stated occupation at the hearing. I don't read his testimony was trying to "cinch Holliday" at all - as was said- if it is read carefully. He only said he thought... more
Kate never spoke out and gave Doc an alibi. Doc was gone all evening from her contact until very late at night. Wouldn't Doc of had some contact with her if only to freshen up upon his return to... more