TTR: October 30, 2013
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bfrey
Criminal syndicate
Thu Jul 19, 2012 08:14

I think one could argue the point that Doc was involved in a criminal syndicate known as the "Dodge City gang". All bunko artists were not stage robbers, but had other outlying contributions to the activities.

Doc was an associate and friend of Jordan Webb, a known member of the Dodge gang. He operated a bar with him and also received significant help in judicial proceedings from the leader of this group, Hoodo Brown.

After Doc turned over his saloon, for financial concerns he stayed in Las Vegas and continued to gamble and associate with all these members.

Numerous robberies occurred during this time, not to mention several stage holdups, one in which Doc's partner, Webb was charged with. These stage robberies in my opinion are a blueprint of some of the same robberies that occurred around Tombstone. If given the chance someday, it would be interesting to compare there m.o. I know they took place just outside of the town and in one instance 3 men participated in one of the stage robberies.
So you have Webb and Doc down and out in Las Vegas, part of a criminal syndicate, and Webb is arrested for stage robbery. I guess you could argue either way, just like Tombstone, that Doc was involved in it somehow or he kept himself clean? "Bunko Stuff" goes hand and hand in maintaining criminal activity and certainly could easily branch out to holdups. The holdups themselves would need others to plan and support the participants.

As to the Kate question which is very intriguing, a spouse apparently could not testify against their partner. Marieta Duarte,the wife of Pete Spence, had her testimony objected to based on that very legal principal.

One final note, Wyatt was hanging around Las Vegas with Doc on and off before finally heading out to Tombstone. He also kept himself above suspicion. Did Wyatt ever hold a law position in Las Vegas?

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  • According to old man Fuller, Doc caught up with him at 4 pm, hitched his horse to his wagon and entered Tombstone at 6pm. The Benson stage did not even leave Tombstone until 7pm that night. Further... more
    • bfrey If Doc thought he would need an alibi, would he not have set one up? Indisputable evidence would be nice now but, I think unlikely now. I doubt Doc needed one as the prosecutor couldn't find... more
      • alibisbfrey, Thu Jul 19 06:53
        I find it strange Doc sat in a wagon with Old Man Fuller to ride back to Tombstone. Even tho Fuller claims Doc was with him the time he claims does not exclude Doc from anything. The evidence the... more
        • alibis versu no evidence of guiltTom Gaumer, Thu Jul 19 15:55
          bfrey Assume you are right that Old Man Fuller's undocumented I think, remembrance does not exclude Doc from anything. It doesn't include doc in any attack on th stage either. Would you find the ride ... more
          • could we say?bfrey, Mon Jul 23 14:51
            That being a partner with J.J Webb and having him being charged in stage robbery was a connection? How is it that Doc is around certain individuals that end up robbing stages for there funds. Is this ... more
            • How about this question & could we sayTom Gaumer, Mon Jul 23 21:37
              bfrey Suppose Kate did not recant. What that she said would convince a jury to convict Doc of having participated in the stage attack? Could we say: Lots of people knew J.J,Webb and lots knew Bill... more
              • what Kate said.... and didn'tbfrey, Tue Jul 24 01:26
                Kate said the Doc told her about his involvement. I don't think that is true, but Kate had enough suspicions about Doc behavior that evening that she must of raised them to Behan and believed... more
                • And Wells Fargo with oversight siadTom Gaumer, Tue Jul 24 17:45
                  bfrey Could you provide the source where Kate said Doc told her about his involvment in the Benson stage attack? On pages 154,155,156,157,158,453 and 454 of Gary Roberts book about Doc, the subject... more
                  • Not to throw them out here willy nilly without support. As I recall it was from another Doc biography and I believe it was "Doc Holliday: A Family Portrait by Karen Holliday Tanner and Robert K... more
                    • I checked a couple also.Tom Gaumer, Tue Jul 24 23:18
                      Thanks bfrey. I found it in Karen Tanners book. Karen’s conclusion concerning Doc and the attack on the stage in her book can best be stated in these words from page 153, “Doc had spent most of his... more
      • As Doc said....B.J., Thu Jul 19 00:44
        If he was involved, he would have got the money As it was, no money was missing!
      • As per Stuart Lake, of all people..Peter Love, Thu Jul 19 00:34
        (Hi Tom) ...Doc's witnesses (alibi) were gamblers. Just like the Cowboys, the Gamblers always covered their own. Ergo look at the lineup of sports Wyatt had to back-up claims of Frank McClaury's... more
        • Peter would you call as witnesses for where he was and what he was doing? Could you list the sports who backed up Wyatt's claims of Frank"s threats? I'm sure Fitch would have preferred nuns as... more
          • You're right TomButch Badon, Fri Jul 20 12:41
            Gamblers, pimps and other sharps can be relied on for their honesty. I have no idea whether Doc participated in that bungled robbery or not. However, I don't need witnesses to tell me not to trust a... more
            • That is not what I said ButchTom Gaumer, Sat Jul 21 03:33
              I said you would have to call witnesses that witnessed Doc's activities. As he was part of the saloon crowd and spent his time there, calling witnesses from church or the hospital or the Chamber of... more
          • Good pointPeter Love, Thu Jul 19 16:08
            Tom I had thought of that, too. But there were ordinary citizens who frequented these places too. It would be more convincing if the witnesses were not from the inner circle. The witnesses in the... more
        • Doc was surrounded by men involved in stage robbing in Vegas, he may not have been one of the working men in the attempts but bunko stuff was not beneath him, ever
          • Please explain....Jeff Morey, Thu Jul 19 07:22
            bfrey, Please explain what Las Vegas activities you are referring to. As for "bunko stuff", what does that have to do with stage robberies? Were all bunko artists also stage robbers? The question... more
            • Criminal syndicate — bfrey, Thu Jul 19 08:14
              • Question...?Jeff Morey, Thu Jul 19 11:41
                bfrey, What exactly made the "Dodge City gang" a criminal syndicate? My Best, Jeff Morey
                • "Dodge City gang" a criminal syndicate?K.t.K., Thu Jul 19 13:30
                  Yes, it was a crime syndicate operating at Las Vegas but in actuality being a splinter group of the orginal "gang" at Dodge. Although there were many charter members from Dodge at Las vegas we don't... more
                  • Didge City GangRandy King, Tue May 14 11:12
                    In doing some on-line research I came across this link by Kenny. On the bottom is list gang members such as Bill Tilghman, James and Bat Materson, and Neil Brown to name a few. I have done extensive... more
                  • Re: "Dodge City gang" a criminal syndicate?Bob Cash, Sat Jul 21 10:26
                    Gary makes a pretty good case that Doc was not considered a member of the Las Vegas version of the Dodge City Gang by the citizens who had run them out of town on threat of death. For Doc to have... more
                    • Interesting.K.t.K., Sat Jul 21 12:08
                      Let's see: Doc is a verified member of the Dodge City Gang, before and after Las Vegas, but he is not a member of Las Vegas version of the Dodge City Gang. Hmmm. Let me run this by my 8-year-old... more
                      • Re: Interesting.Bob Cash, Sat Jul 21 13:04
                        What does "a verified member" of the Dodge City Gang mean? What source identifies Doc as a member of a Dodge City Gang after Las Vegas?
                        • old newsK.t.K., Sat Jul 21 16:21
                          Bob, it is, and was common knowledge that one faction in the gamblers war in Tombstone (1880-81) was staffed with fighting men of Dodge City fame, a.k.a. “the Easterners.” Opposition gamblers were... more
                  • Impressively presented, but....Jeff Morey, Fri Jul 20 08:06
                    K.t.K., Your response to my question was impressively presented, but I am still not clear on what exactly distinguished a "gang" from a "syndicate" in the late 1870s and early 1880s. Was the "Dodge... more
                    • I would venture to guess...bfrey, Fri Jul 20 13:12
                      Being Mayor, Coroner, justice of the peace, and controlling all those bits of government help created a network in order to do criminal activities with impunity, if you were connected to the... more
                    • gang or syndicate?K.t.K., Fri Jul 20 09:55
                      My trusty 1864 Websters wasn’t much help. “SYNDICATE: A council, or body of syndics; a branch of government.” (evidently a syndic referred to an agent or officer of corporation.) The modern day... more
                      • Good Post, Kenny!Jeff Morey, Fri Jul 20 17:07
                        Kenny, I still suspect the employment of the term : "criminal syndicate" may be somewhat misapplied because of it's current implication of a broad network spread out over some geographical distance.... more
                      • not Salina - Salida, ColoradoK.t.K., Fri Jul 20 12:12
                        There are many fascinating re-connections and cross-connections for Dodge City Gang alumni all over the map. For instance its never been published about why Doc Holliday in July 1882 stopped several... more
                        • Masterson at Buena Vista?Charles F. Price, Sat Jul 21 05:38
                          Kenny, I think you and I may have corresponded about this previously. For others, I did some research on Bat's time in BV and wrote two articles about him on Colorado Central Magazine, issues of... more
                          • Hi CharlesK.t.K., Sat Jul 21 11:48
                            Bat and Luke Short had both been in Leadville. There's no coincidence they were with the horde of bunko men forced to leave Leadville in spring 1880 and who came to Buena Vista in order to set up... more
                            • Re: Hi CharlesBob Cash, Sat Jul 21 15:16
                              Pretty much outdid yourself on this one, Kenny. Bravo.
                              • That ain't nuthin', Bob.K.t.K., Mon Jul 23 10:41
                                Where did 'HooDoo Brown' end up after he fled with his wife from Las Vegas, N.M. in March 1880? Back to Colorado, where, from the early 1870s he was known from top to bottom. First destination was... more
                            • Your Postcharles F. Price, Sat Jul 21 13:04
                              Thanks, Kenny. I had most of that in my Colorado Central article on Masterson in BV, Oart II but it's good to have it all in one spot. The Leadville piece at the end is very illustrative of... more
                          • Mr. Price.Jeff Smith, Sat Jul 21 08:00
                            Hello, Charles. Do you have any names associated with the bunco men? I would love to learn who some of them were, which could help me lead you to more information. Bat was very chummy with the Denver ... more
                            • Buncos in BVcharles f price, Sat Jul 21 09:49
                              Hi, jeff. Yes, I have some names of the bunco crowd. I'll email you separately with the info, and send you some contemporary reporting on the BV troubles. I have a lot of research stored away and... more
                • when the lawless are enforcing the law...bfrey, Thu Jul 19 12:06
                  For starters when the head of the organization is judge and jury for starters. That and running all the bunko operations. I'm sure you are familiar with the Hoodoo gang in Las Vegas and it's... more
        • Question...?Jeff Morey, Thu Jul 19 02:05
          Peter, Who did Lake claim were "Doc's witnesses"? My Best, Jeff Morey
          • Re: Question...?Peter Love, Thu Jul 19 02:06
            I don't think he did Jeff, he just said they were gamblers. According to my memory, I don't have his book. Peter
            • Well...Jeff Morey, Thu Jul 19 04:35
              Peter, You cite a book you don't have and can't check before you post? That is a very risky approach. Actually, Lake claims there were three witnesses who testified: Doc Holliday "Old Man" Fuller... more
              • A little bit risky..Peter Love, Fri Jul 20 22:57
                Jeff, ...but I wasn't writing a thesis. And as you said before, it doesn't make any difference at all, if Doc participated in the stage robbery. But after your post, it bugged me, so I went down to... more
                • Old man Fullerbfrey, Sat Jul 21 08:31
                  Was the father of Wes, so if anything he had ties to the cowboys. There must be a reason he had to side with the Earp's and provide a alibi for Doc?
                  • YesPeter Love, Sat Jul 21 14:12
                    Bruce But Wes was a gambler, his stated occupation at the hearing. I don't read his testimony was trying to "cinch Holliday" at all - as was said- if it is read carefully. He only said he thought... more
              • Kate never spoke out and gave Doc an alibi. Doc was gone all evening from her contact until very late at night. Wouldn't Doc of had some contact with her if only to freshen up upon his return to... more
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