Tom Gaumer
alibis versu no evidence of guilt
Thu Jul 19, 2012 15:55
bfrey
Assume you are right that Old Man Fuller's undocumented I think, remembrance does not exclude Doc from anything. It doesn't include doc in any attack on th stage either. Would you find the ride in Old Man Fuller's wagon strange if Doc wa so drunk near Leonards camp he could barely get on his horse as, I believe, Wells Fargo said?
Do you think Wells Fargo would defend Doc or the Earps if they, with all their contacts and employees, thought they were defending people who killed their employees and robbed their shipments or tried to?
Kate did recant. Maybe Virgil helped by sobering her up and making her understand she was killing her man by lying about him in her rage. Isn't that just as likely an explanation than this conspiratorial coverup of Doc as a stage robber and murderer. Also what specific evidence in her proposed testimony, if she did not recant, would you think proved Doc attacked the stage? Are you not stuck once again with lots of suspicion but no facts to hang it on?
It is inconsistent with Doc's past as you cannot state one stagecoach robbery or attempt that was traced to Doc ever before this one that isn't getting very close to him either:-)
Please name one stage robbery Doc "was around in Las Vegas." By around do you mean he was in the same town where coach stick ups occurred? What kind of a prosecutor would say to a jury, "Mr. X was in town during a stage robbery so he was part of it? Can you state any stage robberies Leonard was tied to in Las Vegas either? In his case we all know one he was tied to in A.T. but what does his presence in Las Vegas prove either?
Also do you know of one other stage robbery or attempt in the Tombstone area that was ever even remotely tied to Doc or Leonard to justify your statement about the same kind of activity continuing in Tombstone. I think it continued all over the West.
Assume you are right that Old Man Fuller's undocumented I think, remembrance does not exclude Doc from anything. It doesn't include doc in any attack on th stage either. Would you find the ride in Old Man Fuller's wagon strange if Doc wa so drunk near Leonards camp he could barely get on his horse as, I believe, Wells Fargo said?
Do you think Wells Fargo would defend Doc or the Earps if they, with all their contacts and employees, thought they were defending people who killed their employees and robbed their shipments or tried to?
Kate did recant. Maybe Virgil helped by sobering her up and making her understand she was killing her man by lying about him in her rage. Isn't that just as likely an explanation than this conspiratorial coverup of Doc as a stage robber and murderer. Also what specific evidence in her proposed testimony, if she did not recant, would you think proved Doc attacked the stage? Are you not stuck once again with lots of suspicion but no facts to hang it on?
It is inconsistent with Doc's past as you cannot state one stagecoach robbery or attempt that was traced to Doc ever before this one that isn't getting very close to him either:-)
Please name one stage robbery Doc "was around in Las Vegas." By around do you mean he was in the same town where coach stick ups occurred? What kind of a prosecutor would say to a jury, "Mr. X was in town during a stage robbery so he was part of it? Can you state any stage robberies Leonard was tied to in Las Vegas either? In his case we all know one he was tied to in A.T. but what does his presence in Las Vegas prove either?
Also do you know of one other stage robbery or attempt in the Tombstone area that was ever even remotely tied to Doc or Leonard to justify your statement about the same kind of activity continuing in Tombstone. I think it continued all over the West.
- a weak alibi is better than no alibi at all — bfrey, Wed Jul 18 10:51According to old man Fuller, Doc caught up with him at 4 pm, hitched his horse to his wagon and entered Tombstone at 6pm. The Benson stage did not even leave Tombstone until 7pm that night. Further... more
- Doc didn't think he needed an alibi as he didn't do it?? — Tom Gaumer, Wed Jul 18 23:58bfrey If Doc thought he would need an alibi, would he not have set one up? Indisputable evidence would be nice now but, I think unlikely now. I doubt Doc needed one as the prosecutor couldn't find... more
- alibis — bfrey, Thu Jul 19 06:53I find it strange Doc sat in a wagon with Old Man Fuller to ride back to Tombstone. Even tho Fuller claims Doc was with him the time he claims does not exclude Doc from anything. The evidence the... more
- alibis versu no evidence of guilt — Tom Gaumer, Thu Jul 19 15:55
- could we say? — bfrey, Mon Jul 23 14:51That being a partner with J.J Webb and having him being charged in stage robbery was a connection? How is it that Doc is around certain individuals that end up robbing stages for there funds. Is this ... more
- How about this question & could we say — Tom Gaumer, Mon Jul 23 21:37bfrey Suppose Kate did not recant. What that she said would convince a jury to convict Doc of having participated in the stage attack? Could we say: Lots of people knew J.J,Webb and lots knew Bill... more
- what Kate said.... and didn't — bfrey, Tue Jul 24 01:26Kate said the Doc told her about his involvement. I don't think that is true, but Kate had enough suspicions about Doc behavior that evening that she must of raised them to Behan and believed... more
- And Wells Fargo with oversight siad — Tom Gaumer, Tue Jul 24 17:45bfrey Could you provide the source where Kate said Doc told her about his involvment in the Benson stage attack? On pages 154,155,156,157,158,453 and 454 of Gary Roberts book about Doc, the subject... more
- I will check the source....as I have learned — bfrey, Tue Jul 24 19:56Not to throw them out here willy nilly without support. As I recall it was from another Doc biography and I believe it was "Doc Holliday: A Family Portrait by Karen Holliday Tanner and Robert K... more
- I checked a couple also. — Tom Gaumer, Tue Jul 24 23:18Thanks bfrey. I found it in Karen Tanners book. Karen’s conclusion concerning Doc and the attack on the stage in her book can best be stated in these words from page 153, “Doc had spent most of his... more
- As Doc said.... — B.J., Thu Jul 19 00:44If he was involved, he would have got the money As it was, no money was missing!
- the robbery was a failure, bungled (nm) — bfrey, Thu Jul 19 06:46
- the robbery was a failure, bungled??? — B.J., Fri Jul 20 11:10How can a stage coach robbery be considered "a failure" and "bungled" Assuming that was actually the motive? Robbing a stage coach is extremely easy. Using a trip wire or shooting one horse will stop ... more
- A tripwire would have got the wrong coach — Peter Love, Sat Jul 21 14:15an even more embarrassing bungle.
- motive is another factor... — bfrey, Fri Jul 20 13:04I would venture to guess there are two considerations in this attempt, bushwhacking or robbery. Why would you need 4 men to get a crack at Paul if that is what your trying to do? I think robbing a... more
- Why, because he was such a great stage robber? (nm) — Peter Love, Thu Jul 19 01:01
- As per Stuart Lake, of all people.. — Peter Love, Thu Jul 19 00:34(Hi Tom) ...Doc's witnesses (alibi) were gamblers. Just like the Cowboys, the Gamblers always covered their own. Ergo look at the lineup of sports Wyatt had to back-up claims of Frank McClaury's... more
- Doc was a gambler so spent his time in saloons so who — Tom Gaumer, Thu Jul 19 15:15Peter would you call as witnesses for where he was and what he was doing? Could you list the sports who backed up Wyatt's claims of Frank"s threats? I'm sure Fitch would have preferred nuns as... more
- You're right Tom — Butch Badon, Fri Jul 20 12:41Gamblers, pimps and other sharps can be relied on for their honesty. I have no idea whether Doc participated in that bungled robbery or not. However, I don't need witnesses to tell me not to trust a... more
- That is not what I said Butch — Tom Gaumer, Sat Jul 21 03:33I said you would have to call witnesses that witnessed Doc's activities. As he was part of the saloon crowd and spent his time there, calling witnesses from church or the hospital or the Chamber of... more
- Good point — Peter Love, Thu Jul 19 16:08Tom I had thought of that, too. But there were ordinary citizens who frequented these places too. It would be more convincing if the witnesses were not from the inner circle. The witnesses in the... more
- Here is what you said and I thought you meant — Tom Gaumer, Thu Jul 19 20:24Peter "Ergo look at the lineup of sports Wyatt had to back-up claims of Frank McClaury's threats, in the hearing." None of the ones you listed were witnesses "in the hearing." I guess I misunderstood ... more
- No worries, Tom (nm) — Peter Love, Thu Jul 19 21:04
- all you need to do is check his Las Vegas activities — bfrey, Thu Jul 19 06:47Doc was surrounded by men involved in stage robbing in Vegas, he may not have been one of the working men in the attempts but bunko stuff was not beneath him, ever
- Please explain.... — Jeff Morey, Thu Jul 19 07:22bfrey, Please explain what Las Vegas activities you are referring to. As for "bunko stuff", what does that have to do with stage robberies? Were all bunko artists also stage robbers? The question... more
- Criminal syndicate — bfrey, Thu Jul 19 08:14I think one could argue the point that Doc was involved in a criminal syndicate known as the "Dodge City gang". All bunko artists were not stage robbers, but had other outlying contributions to the... more
- Question...? — Jeff Morey, Thu Jul 19 11:41bfrey, What exactly made the "Dodge City gang" a criminal syndicate? My Best, Jeff Morey
- "Dodge City gang" a criminal syndicate? — K.t.K., Thu Jul 19 13:30Yes, it was a crime syndicate operating at Las Vegas but in actuality being a splinter group of the orginal "gang" at Dodge. Although there were many charter members from Dodge at Las vegas we don't... more
- Didge City Gang — Randy King, Tue May 14 11:12In doing some on-line research I came across this link by Kenny. On the bottom is list gang members such as Bill Tilghman, James and Bat Materson, and Neil Brown to name a few. I have done extensive... more
- Re: "Dodge City gang" a criminal syndicate? — Bob Cash, Sat Jul 21 10:26Gary makes a pretty good case that Doc was not considered a member of the Las Vegas version of the Dodge City Gang by the citizens who had run them out of town on threat of death. For Doc to have... more
- Interesting. — K.t.K., Sat Jul 21 12:08Let's see: Doc is a verified member of the Dodge City Gang, before and after Las Vegas, but he is not a member of Las Vegas version of the Dodge City Gang. Hmmm. Let me run this by my 8-year-old... more
- Re: Interesting. — Bob Cash, Sat Jul 21 13:04What does "a verified member" of the Dodge City Gang mean? What source identifies Doc as a member of a Dodge City Gang after Las Vegas?
- Impressively presented, but.... — Jeff Morey, Fri Jul 20 08:06K.t.K., Your response to my question was impressively presented, but I am still not clear on what exactly distinguished a "gang" from a "syndicate" in the late 1870s and early 1880s. Was the "Dodge... more
- I would venture to guess... — bfrey, Fri Jul 20 13:12Being Mayor, Coroner, justice of the peace, and controlling all those bits of government help created a network in order to do criminal activities with impunity, if you were connected to the... more
- gang or syndicate? — K.t.K., Fri Jul 20 09:55My trusty 1864 Websters wasn’t much help. “SYNDICATE: A council, or body of syndics; a branch of government.” (evidently a syndic referred to an agent or officer of corporation.) The modern day... more
- Good Post, Kenny! — Jeff Morey, Fri Jul 20 17:07Kenny, I still suspect the employment of the term : "criminal syndicate" may be somewhat misapplied because of it's current implication of a broad network spread out over some geographical distance.... more
- that word may have been my folly.. (nm) — bfrey, Fri Jul 20 22:02
- not Salina - Salida, Colorado — K.t.K., Fri Jul 20 12:12There are many fascinating re-connections and cross-connections for Dodge City Gang alumni all over the map. For instance its never been published about why Doc Holliday in July 1882 stopped several... more
- Masterson at Buena Vista? — Charles F. Price, Sat Jul 21 05:38Kenny, I think you and I may have corresponded about this previously. For others, I did some research on Bat's time in BV and wrote two articles about him on Colorado Central Magazine, issues of... more
- Hi Charles — K.t.K., Sat Jul 21 11:48Bat and Luke Short had both been in Leadville. There's no coincidence they were with the horde of bunko men forced to leave Leadville in spring 1880 and who came to Buena Vista in order to set up... more
- Re: Hi Charles — Bob Cash, Sat Jul 21 15:16Pretty much outdid yourself on this one, Kenny. Bravo.
- That ain't nuthin', Bob. — K.t.K., Mon Jul 23 10:41Where did 'HooDoo Brown' end up after he fled with his wife from Las Vegas, N.M. in March 1880? Back to Colorado, where, from the early 1870s he was known from top to bottom. First destination was... more
- Your Post — charles F. Price, Sat Jul 21 13:04Thanks, Kenny. I had most of that in my Colorado Central article on Masterson in BV, Oart II but it's good to have it all in one spot. The Leadville piece at the end is very illustrative of... more
- Mr. Price. — Jeff Smith, Sat Jul 21 08:00Hello, Charles. Do you have any names associated with the bunco men? I would love to learn who some of them were, which could help me lead you to more information. Bat was very chummy with the Denver ... more
- Buncos in BV — charles f price, Sat Jul 21 09:49Hi, jeff. Yes, I have some names of the bunco crowd. I'll email you separately with the info, and send you some contemporary reporting on the BV troubles. I have a lot of research stored away and... more
- when the lawless are enforcing the law... — bfrey, Thu Jul 19 12:06For starters when the head of the organization is judge and jury for starters. That and running all the bunko operations. I'm sure you are familiar with the Hoodoo gang in Las Vegas and it's... more
- Question...? — Jeff Morey, Thu Jul 19 02:05Peter, Who did Lake claim were "Doc's witnesses"? My Best, Jeff Morey
- Re: Question...? — Peter Love, Thu Jul 19 02:06I don't think he did Jeff, he just said they were gamblers. According to my memory, I don't have his book. Peter
- Well... — Jeff Morey, Thu Jul 19 04:35Peter, You cite a book you don't have and can't check before you post? That is a very risky approach. Actually, Lake claims there were three witnesses who testified: Doc Holliday "Old Man" Fuller... more
- A little bit risky.. — Peter Love, Fri Jul 20 22:57Jeff, ...but I wasn't writing a thesis. And as you said before, it doesn't make any difference at all, if Doc participated in the stage robbery. But after your post, it bugged me, so I went down to... more
- Old man Fuller — bfrey, Sat Jul 21 08:31Was the father of Wes, so if anything he had ties to the cowboys. There must be a reason he had to side with the Earp's and provide a alibi for Doc?
- the most important witness, never gave a statement — bfrey, Thu Jul 19 07:01Kate never spoke out and gave Doc an alibi. Doc was gone all evening from her contact until very late at night. Wouldn't Doc of had some contact with her if only to freshen up upon his return to... more
