B.J.'s Tombstone History Discussion Form

TTR: October 30, 2013

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I'd suggest that anyone interested in this discussion go below to the search engine and type in "mescal springs." We sometimes forget that we--or somebody--has gone over this or related topics before on the board. There are strings on Curly Bill, Mescal Springs, and related matters going back to 2009, most of it worthwhile and relevant. Don't forget the back files as reference.

Best to all!

Gary

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Wyatt vs. the prospectors — Bob Cash, Mon Aug 6 18:55

http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cdnc/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&cl=search&d=LAH18820406.2.14&srpos=64&e=01-01-1880-01-01-1895--en--20--61--txt-IN-Earp ----#
- Thanks Bob, for drawing attention . . ., — Lynn Bailey, Tue Aug 7 10:54
  
  once again, to Frank Hereford’s rendition of Wyatt’s battle with prospectors at Mescal Springs. This account cannot be dismissed in light of what Randolph Farmer has dug up regarding Curly Bill’s... more
- - Re: Thanks Bob, for drawing attention . . ., — Bob Cash, Wed Aug 8 08:03
    
    Who was Dan Murphy? If this is something you'd prefer for people to know by reading your book please disregard.
  - - Bob, Dan Murphy is no secret . . . — Lynn R. Bailey, Wed Aug 8 08:39
      
      I have mentioned him before on this board. Researchers know of him through his affiliation with Cornelius T. Cutler in opening mines in the Moctezuma District of Sonora about 1878. Murphy had claims... more
    - - Back files — Gary Roberts, Wed Aug 8 09:50
      - A Ton of Information? — Charles F. Price, Wed Aug 8 09:28
        
        Mr. Bailey, Your admonition that we should all "get out there and dig a little" smacks to me of the winks and nods we used to get from Gilchriese and Boyer, all claiming to have superior knowledge... more
      - That's a reall poor read Mr. Price — Butch Badon, Wed Aug 8 14:39
        
        No one is more giving with regards to information about Arizona and Old West History than Lynn Bailey. I admonish you to read more carefully Lynn's post on this subject and the subsequent follow-up... more
        Charles and Chris — Robin Andrews, Wed Aug 8 11:53
        
        Dear Charles and Chris, You are both barking up the wrong tree when you attack Lynn Bailey on this board. He has always been a man of integrity and generosity and has always "put his pen to the... more
        Postscript to Robin — Charles F. Price, Fri Aug 10 05:02
        
        Robin, just wanted to clarify my last post by mentioning the great help I HAVE gotten from folks on this board. Chris Penn has regularly been sending me newspaper articles giving me more and more... more
        Miscellaneous — Gary Roberts, Fri Aug 10 11:10
        
        Charles, I'm on the east side of the river myself; I live in south Georgia on I-75, about 40 miles north of Valdosta, where Doc grew up. Like you, I corresponded with a bunch of people as a young... more
        Espinosas — Charles F. Price, Fri Aug 10 11:29
        
        Gary, I'm pleased and flattered to make your acquaintance, as you are one of my models of a straightforward, guided-by-the-evidence, objective historian and biographer. I consult your Doc Holliday... more
        Common interests — Gary Roberts, Fri Aug 10 14:30
        
        Charles, I've been tracking the Sand Creek story--and all of its principal figures almost as long as I've been interest in Wyatt and Doc. Since my dissertation was finished, I've continued to collect ... more
        The Past Twenty Years — Charles F. Price, Sun Aug 12 06:47
        
        Gary, Sounds like your experience with what you call the "log-jam" of the past in Tombstone studies was very similar to mine. I too tried for years to keep up with the state of the art, if the... more
        Thanks, Gary — Charles F. Price, Sat Aug 11 04:46
        
        One of the great benefits of being on this board, even as a seemingly petulant gadfly, has been making the e-acquaintance of scholars like yourself whose work I have admired for many years. Right now ... more
        Thanks, Robin — Charles F. Price, Thu Aug 9 05:16
        
        And I apologize for calling you a Mr. and not a Ms. in an earlier post. I think I need to explain where I'm coming from in all this, and then maybe I'll just put a lid on this whole exchange... more
        Same difference — Jen, Fri Aug 10 06:12
        
        Hello Charles. I would like to respond to the following statement. "The difference is, in that area of study there is an informal roundtable of researchers, much like this Forum, where the various... more
        Thanks, Jen — Charles F. Price, Fri Aug 10 06:39
        
        I defer to you in every item you mention, and can only say in response that, while I'm mired here in faraway North Carolina; am retired and limited in means; can only afford to get west about once a... more
        I know where you are coming from — Lynn R. Bailey, Fri Aug 10 07:34
        
        Charles: I know what you are going through. I am 75 years old and not in the best of health. I pray that I will live long enough to get what little information I have gathered out to people who are... more
        Thank you, Lynn — Charles F. Price, Fri Aug 10 08:41
        
        You can't know how relieved and happy I am to hear from you so graciously after our unfortunate clash of a few days ago. I wonder whether, when working with Gilchriese, you may have seen some of my... more
        I never saw any plaintive letters . . . — Lynn Bailey, Fri Aug 10 09:17
        
        but what you say about John is true. Up to the night he died, he would say, “I have something that will knock your socks off.” It was usually an envelope or a letterhead. But he did urge people to... more
        Arthur Woodward — Charles F. Price, Fri Aug 10 09:46
        
        I'm afraid the name doesn't chime for me. I did check Wikipedia, like any ignorant person would. Was he the paleontologist? Charles
        Woodward: that beard that walked like a man — Lynn Bailey, Fri Aug 10 10:40
        
        Woodward was curator of history and archaeology at the Los Angeles County Museum for 25 years. Before that he was with the Museum of the American Indian, Heye Foundation, New York City. He studied... more
        Art Woodward — Auty Dahlquist, Mon Aug 20 13:41
        
        Mr. Bailey, I would enjoy speaking with you as you knew my Grandfather. There doesn't seem to be many around that knew him anymore. I have been compling information about him for a few years now.... more
        Art Woodward — Lynn Bailey, Tue Aug 21 06:53
        
        Auty: I sent you my e-mail address. I would enjoy corresponding about Art. My father published a number of his books, and I have an extensive Woodward file. There is more of his correspondence at the ... more
        Art Woodward — Auty Dahlquist, Mon Aug 20 13:30
        
        He was amazing. He was my Grandfather. Clay feet indeed.
        Woodward — Charles F. Price, Fri Aug 10 11:06
        
        Sounds like a most imposing figure, as Gilchriese must've been. I spent nearly 20 years in Washington, DC observing the swaggering egos on display there; the wisest thing I ever did was leave there... more
        Re: Charles and Chris — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 12:40
        
        Robin, I think you are mistaken. Lynn's behavior speaks for itself. The fact that many here seem to think it's fine and dandy says quite a bit. Scholarship is by nature a shared and public... more
        You can tell a fool, but — Butch Badon, Wed Aug 8 14:40
        
        you can't tell him much. Robin Andrews knows of what she speaks. Bank it. Butch
        Re: You can tell a fool, but — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 15:03
        
        Amen, brother. But confessions of personal support don't constitute scholarship, either. Part of the problem here is that too many of those concerned with Tombstone history are also concerned with... more
        Mr. Andrews — Charles F. Price, Wed Aug 8 12:10
        
        I have already apologized to Mr. Bailey while at the same time explaining my reasons for posting what I did. I have also expressed my admiration for his work. That does not change my expectation that ... more
        Mescal Springs — Anne Collier, Wed Aug 8 13:59
        
        All- I agree with Robin. No one is entitled to another persons work simply because it is requested, or as she wrote, "No researcher here owes any one else his/her knowledge or materials." Typically... more
        Thanks, Anne — Charles F. Price, Wed Aug 8 14:30
        
        For your very gracious and balanced remarks. I hope in future I can prove myself as insightful and graceful as you. Charles
        Your future looks bright — Anne Collier, Wed Aug 8 21:18
        
        Charles, No worries. There is a lot of room for me in improvement, so your future definitely looks bright! ;-)
        A ton of information . . . — Lynn R. Bailey, Wed Aug 8 10:12
        
        Mr. Price: How dare you. I have shared well-documented material for years on this board and with members of TTR. I have bent over backwards to help researchers. And I publish my research. What do I... more
        Lynn — Butch Badon, Wed Aug 8 14:43
        
        I am sorry I did not see the unfair critical remarks by people who know not of what they speak. I jumped in to support you - and you need none from me - way too late. But I see that Charles Price has ... more
        Re: A ton of information . . . — Bob Cash, Wed Aug 8 12:06
        
        Charles, I think you misinterpreted the intended tone of Lynn's admonition. Most people on this board know that everything Lynn said in response to your post is the truth. In fact, he has shared on... more
        Mr. Bailey — Charles F. Price, Wed Aug 8 10:35
        
        I dare because I express my true feelings of frustration. First let me say it was not I who used the term "historical malice". I merely said what I felt when I read what struck me as a dismissive "go ... more
        Oops! — Bob Cash, Wed Aug 8 12:15
        
        Charles, I hadn't read this post before I made mine above. I apologize, as I see you didn't need any one piling on in order for you to readjust your viewpoint on your own. I'm glad you decided to... more
        What Bob said. (nm) — Butch Badon, Wed Aug 8 14:45
        
        Re: A ton of information . . . — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 10:27
        
        Lynn, It's true. If you were simply forthcoming and backed up your claims, then there would be no way to question your motives. As it stands, however, you make claims and then say that one should... more
        Dang Chris! — Butch Badon, Wed Aug 8 14:46
        
        All these folks such as Robin Andrews, Bob Cash, et al, telling you you're wrong and you refuse to give it up. Please, give it up for Lynn Bailey. Butch
        Speaking Out-- or Not — Charles F. Price, Wed Aug 8 10:55
        
        Thanks for the supportive comments, Chris. I haven't been a part of this dialogue long enough to know who is who, or who has contributed what, but I do admire Mr. Bailey's published work and was... more
        Re: Speaking Out-- or Not — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 11:31
        
        Charles, I sometimes cause a stir here myself. I am not a "researcher" of history in the sense that term is usually bandied about, but I study history and have published essays in scholarly journals. ... more
        The powers of imagination fail me — Paul Cool, Wed Aug 8 11:53
        
        I am trying to picture a "blustering" Lynn Bailey, and for the life of me I can't. Or maybe you were just bandying the word about. With respect for all sworn enemies of blusterositude and... more
        Re: The powers of imagination fail me — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 12:27
        
        Paul, A good example, which I already mentioned, is the previous remark Lynn made when he told me I should go to Mexico to look up his sources. I asked him to provide proof for his Curly Bill claims... more
        Chris--Your Publications — Charles F. Price, Wed Aug 8 11:49
        
        Thanks, I've already downloaded the Cormac McCarthy PDF but can't tell which issue of the Texas State publication has your piece in it. Please advise. I look forward to acquainting myself with your... more
        Re: Chris--Your Publications — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 12:07
        
        Charles, The Southwestern American Literature essay is in the fall 2011 issue. I will warn you that if you are not familiar with McCarthy's work in general, and BLOOD MERIDIAN in particular, then it... more
        Your Publications — Charles F. Price, Wed Aug 8 12:16
        
        Chris, Cormac McCarthy is one of my favorite authors and Blood Meridian is just about my favorite piece of fiction. I will especially enjoy your thoughts on McCarthy and his work.
        Re: Your Publications — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 12:32
        
        Charles, It's always good to meet a fellow McCarthy student. If you have trouble getting the Southwestern American Literature essay ("Borderline Insanity: Modernity as a Political Problem in Cormac... more
        Email — Charles F. Price, Wed Aug 8 12:37
        
        Chris, My email address, for all and sundry, is charlesfprice@aol.com. All Best, Charles
  - Yes, thanks Bob — Gary Roberts, Tue Aug 7 12:53
    
    This is an interesting account, and I am anxious to see Farmer's new book to see what he makes of it. I myself am skeptical for a variety of reasons: 1. In order to accept it, you not only have to... more
  - - Amazing — Peter Brand, Tue Aug 7 22:08
      
      So "Curly Bill", aged 19, rides with the notorious Bob Martin and shoots up an army wagon near El Paso in 1878. He spends 5 months in jail. Escapes with Bob Martin. But then splits with Martin. He... more
    - - How old was Billy the Kid? (nm) — Peter Love, Thu Aug 9 15:38
      - Did BtK ride with Bob Martin? (nm) — Peter Brand, Fri Aug 10 08:21
      - Re: Amazing — Bob Cash, Wed Aug 8 16:43
        
        Peter, are you aware of any court documents, arrest records, news articles, or old timers' recollection as to Curly's approximate age while he was in southeast Arizona? My impression has always been... more
      - Curly Bill's age — Paul Cool, Thu Aug 9 06:30
        
        In his Curly Bill biography, Steve Gatto presented the only contemporary source I am familiar with. Steve cites the Phoenix Herald for May 17, 1881, which claimed he was 25 and from Texas. See Gatto, ... more
        CURLY BILL 1858-1909 — Richard Hinton , Thu Aug 9 10:18
        
        Look at my posting from yesterday for full information.
        Curly Bill — Richard Hinton, Thu Aug 9 11:11
        
        My first posting got pushed down the line by all the other comments from yesterday. What are the odds of a William Albert Brosius born in 1858 and from Texas having a brother named John Bailey... more
        Curly Bill and John Bailey Brosius — Paul Cool, Thu Aug 9 12:16
        
        Richard, I have not seen Randy's book, so cannot comment on his chain linking CBB of A.T. to WAB/1858. I do not doubt that a Wm. A. Brosius of Texas is the brother of John B. Brosius. I am just not... more
        Re: Curly Bill's age — Bob Cash, Thu Aug 9 07:34
        
        Thanks, Paul. That would certainly put Randy Farmer's Curly Bill in the running to be Arizona's Curly in so far as age is concerned. When I asked the question I was not in a position to refer to my... more
        Re: Curly Bill, may I also recommend... — Paul Cool, Thu Aug 9 08:00
        
        "It's Just a Flesh Wound: The Gunfights of Tombstone's Black Knight." http://www.paulcoolbooks.com/?p=194
    - Re: Yes, thanks Bob — Peter Love, Tue Aug 7 19:06
      
      Hi Gary MAYBE Wyatt genuinely believed he had killed Curly. By the same token, MAYBE the other faction genuinely believed he had not. Both sides were sticking their necks out. Kraker and Wright were... more
    - Re: Yes, thanks Bob — harveycmd, Tue Aug 7 18:15
      
      I'm still waiting to see Randy's evidence examined by the scholarly community. As we have mentioned in the past, given the popularity of the story and general interest in the Wyatt Earp legend, and... more
    - - Unfortunately — Gary Roberts, Wed Aug 8 06:09
        
        Sometimes all we have are contradictory claims. When that is the case, the only thing we can do is to consider the merits of the various claims, discuss them, and pray that something more definitive... more
      - Re: Unfortunately — Bob Cash, Wed Aug 8 07:59
        
        Gary, could you quote the section of the article in which Behan acknowledges that he had posse members at the springs. This is, as you know, very important to answering several questions about the... more
        Posse members — Gary Roberts, Wed Aug 8 08:59
        
        Bob, The NUGGET article included two dispatches, one from Charleston and one from Contention. The Charleston dispatch reported that the Earp party had indeed had a fight, that Wyatt had been wounded, ... more
        Re: Posse members — Peter Love, Thu Aug 9 15:33
        
        Hi Gary Great reply. It is confusing for sure. I, for one, am just a little bit exuberant about Lynn's book. A thing that gets me a bit about this, is that it is as though there is a great weight of... more
        Plausible — Gary Roberts, Fri Aug 10 07:13
        
        Hi Peter, Your approach is plausible, especially with respect to one dispatch from Contention clarifying the other (or disassociating the posse from what happened at the spring). I have concerns,... more
        afterthought — Peter Love, Fri Aug 10 20:57
        
        Hi again Gary You said that it was known the Earp party returned to Tombstone that evening. That skipped past me at first, and I thought it seems unlikely that even if they wanted to (which is... more
        Re: Plausible — Peter Love, Fri Aug 10 16:08
        
        Hi Gary True. And as Lynn says, there was a population at the springs. Also Kraker and Wright might not have been telling the same story. I suspect that Kraker was the close crony, not Wright. If no... more
        Re: Plausible — harveycmd, Fri Aug 10 10:33
        
        What I would be interested in seeing is a comparative study of the various claims that Billy the Kid, Butch Cassidy and Curly Bill were not truly killed when thought to have been. What kinds of... more
        Re: Plausible — Bob Cash, Fri Aug 10 09:02
        
        "The same issue included a telegram sent to Ike Clanton (who was in Tucson) by John Chenowith who told Ike that one report said that four of the Earp party had been killed while another said that one ... more
        According to Roy Young — Gary Roberts, Fri Aug 10 10:35
        
        Chenowith hailed from Arkansas. He went to Arizona from Oakland, California. He first settled at San Simon Cienega in the late 1870s. The Pima County Census, 1880, lists him as a teamster from... more
        John Chenowith — Steve Gatto, Fri Aug 10 09:46
        
        John Augustus Chenowith owned a house on a hill at San Simon. I believe he was also connected with the Grand Hotel - Bar in Tombstone. On one occasion in 1879, William Stark and Al George, who had... more
        If I am not mistaken . . . — Lynn Bailey, Fri Aug 10 11:17
        
        Albert George and William Achilles Stark went to the house of Joe Hill and John Ringo at San Simon cienega. The cienega appealed George and Stark and they built a cabin a mile north of the Hill/Ringo ... more
        Thanks, Steve — Gary Roberts, Fri Aug 10 10:03
        
        Good to hear from you! This is new to me. Best! Gary
        If I may add a little about Chenoweth . . . — Lynn Bailey, Fri Aug 10 11:00
        
        In late 1880 or early ‘81 John Augustus Chenoweth settled at the southwestern end of San Simon Cienega, a quarter mile within New Mexico Territory. The land he took up was formerly the agency... more
        This is what I love about this place — Gary Roberts, Fri Aug 10 11:19
        
        This morning, John Chenowith was a name I'd run across doing research. Now, just a few hours later, I'm acquainted with an interesting character in the Tombstone story. Thanks.
        Gary, thought you might like this . . . — Lynn Bailey, Fri Aug 10 12:12
        
        Chenoweth was one of the founders of Phoenix. Some time after 1871 he was nominated as the Democratic candidate for sheriff of Maricopa County. His run for that office ended abruptly when he shot his ... more
        Lynn, you were right — Gary Roberts, Sat Aug 11 06:08
        
        This is good stuff! This kind of information gives texture and form to the larger story by enabling us to see connections and understand the character of those around the main players. Instead of... more
        Re: Unfortunately — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 06:37
        
        The possible truth of contradictory claims aside, I don't see how changing the emphasis of the matter to who believed Curly Bill had been killed by Wyatt changes anything. The claim being made by... more
        Randy's book — Gary Roberts, Wed Aug 8 07:43
        
        Randy wrote a book on Curly that was available as an e-book about Curly, with notes purchased separately, but an enlarged version of Curly's story is being published by Westernlore Press, due out... more
        Re: Randy's book — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 08:21
        
        Okay, I better understand your reason for emphasizing the belief angle. At this point it is difficult to take the claim that Curly Bill lived on seriously. It may be possible, but it is quite... more
      - What would make you believe Wyatt did not kill Curly? (nm) — Tom Gaumer, Tue Aug 7 22:53
      - William "Al" Brosius — Richard Hinton, Wed Aug 8 11:09
        
        Recently Lynn Bailey informed us that J.B.Brosius was the brother to Curly Bill Brosius. Using this I found posted on Rootsweb, an internet site, this information: George Washington Brosius and Mary... more
        Re: What would make you believe Wyatt did not kill Curly? — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 06:07
        
        I think I understand now. You mean what kind of evidence would convince me that Curly Bill lived beyond the recognized date of his death. I stated that when I wrote "solid contemporary empirical... more
        Thanks and that is clear. (nm) — Tom Gaumer, Thu Aug 9 00:08
        
        I have no idea what you mean. (nm) — harveycmd, Wed Aug 8 04:38
    - Last paragraph intended for Lynn (nm) — Gary Roberts, Tue Aug 7 12:54

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