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Ben Harleman
Paradox
Thu May 17, 2018 19:32
97.113.157.162

The two things that stand out from this is, as has been alluded to already, that Mrs. King never states that nothing more was said, only that nothing more was heard. That's a huge difference of course. And also, that she says she saw no one armed with a gun except for Holliday. She doesn't say that they weren't armed, but that she didn't see anything besides Doc's gun.

Assuming that four men walking down the sidewalk would stand out if they had pistols in their hands, I'm in favor of assuming they weren't carrying them in their hands at the time (assuming). But this makes Virgil's comment paradoxical, because if he's saying strictly "Let them have it" then it begs the question: let them have it with what? Their strategy couldn't be to approach with an attitude of assault while putting their guns in any position less than expedient for immediate fire.

I agree with Kenny that the war-council had begun already, outside of Haffords, and Virgil's comment was probably meant as something along the lines of: if they go for their guns, Doc start blasting with that shotgun so we can all get our guns out. In short, I think they were hoping for a peaceful arrest, but ready for war, and that's what I get out of Mrs. Kings contribution; not walking armed, but conveying words of action.

  • Re: Thanks for the correct phraseSteve Gatto, Thu May 17 07:58
    In actuality, Mrs. King was asked during the coroner's inquest what had frightened her and caused her to run back into the market: “[W]hat frightened me and made me turn back? I heard the man on the... more
    • Newspapers primary purpose is to sell papers.Larry in WA, Thu May 17 20:04
      “The feeling among the best class of our citizens is that the Marshal was entirely justified in his efforts to disarm these men, and that being fired upon they had to defend themselves, which they... more
    • Paradox — Ben Harleman, Thu May 17 19:32
      • Re: ParadoxAnonymous, Fri May 18 07:42
        Well, Martha King provided direct eyewitness testimony when she stated: "no names were used; I heard no other conversation, at this exact time." She is very clear that that was all she heard at that... more
        • Earp party not all on the same page..bfrey, Sat May 19 11:19
          I agree that experienced lawmen and stage guards knew enough to have their guns at the ready for any violence that had been threatened towards them. If we are looking at the statement of "let them... more
          • Right, BfreyK.t.K., Mon May 21 09:59
            And according to the Epitaph, Martha only supposed the outside man was speaking to Holliday "let them have it." Just as likely the outside Earp who, "as he looked around" - was speaking to the whole... more
          • Intent and pagesBen Harleman, Sat May 19 11:50
            I agree, but I don't think it was an intent by either side. I also don't think that it was so much not being on the same page but that in a split moment, for each side, they had to try and... more
            • Stop, I don't want that...Eddie Lanham, Sun May 20 04:30
              Ben, Just wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed reading your "Intent and pages" post. The pot had been on the fire way too long for it not to boil.
              • The miles between the mind and textBen Harleman, Sun May 20 09:08
                Thanks for saying so! I am always left wondering if the things that make sense in my head still do once they've been typed out. It's sometimes hard to tell, and a half-decent thought might come... more
        • Re: ParadoxBen Harleman, Fri May 18 11:29
          Thanks for the response. I think it's a great point that the statement in question wasn't pursued more by the defense. It seems that if it were damaging testimony then they would have challenged it... more
        • Re: ParadoxBen Harleman, Fri May 18 11:27
          Thanks for the response. I think it's a great point that the statement in question wasn't pursued more by the defense. It seems that if it were damaging testimony then they would have challenged it... more
        • Very well saidTom Gaumer, Fri May 18 10:36
          Mrs. King said she heard no more words at that time. If there were war council words minutes earlier and a block away that would not effect her testimony. An order was given to Doc and he... more
          • Re: Very well saidBob Cash, Mon May 21 18:40
            Where is Tom Gaumer and what have you done to him? It is obvious that the same person who wrote the link below is not the person now writing, "Mrs. King said she heard no more words at that time. If... more
            • we know there was a war council...bfrey, Tue May 22 09:11
              We know there was a war council because you would obviously discuss a plan to face men who were armed and threatening your life. There was a plan because the shot gun was given to Doc, and there was... more
          • The parallel book....!Ben Harleman, Fri May 18 11:34
            Hi Tom, this is a perfect illustration why that idea of a parallel record of the different accounts with a column for commentary would be so invaluable. I can just imagine this whole topic being... more
            • Ben/parallel book...Joyce..., Mon May 21 09:29
              That is the project I have been working on for a couple of years. It will certainly stir up a lot of controversy but that will be fun for all...even me. I hope you will like it. Should be out in a... more
              • I have no doubtBen Harleman, Mon May 21 12:41
                That I'll enjoy it. I'll be looking forward to it, for sure! I bet it's a fun project to put together, too. Ben
            • There is a book in preparation Thomas K Gaumer, Sat May 19 16:41
              Ben by well know and respected historians, I think. As I understand it the goal is to cover Earps whole life with sources but there should be some about the Spicer Hearing and testimony? P.S. If... more
              • Ordinance No.7, Section 1Ben Harleman, Sat May 19 18:00
                (effective April 12, 1881): It shall be the duty of all policemen to arrest all parties found in the public streets within the city limits, engaged in brawling, quarreling, etc., and all persons who... more
                • Ben/#7 application...Joyce..., Sun May 20 10:10
                  Ordinance #7 certainly applied to Doc Holiday when he began harassing Ike Clanton, who was sitting quietly eating a lunch. Yet you are applying the same ordinance which resulted in the killing of... more
                  • We got the wrong "All's"...Ben Harleman, Sun May 20 15:12
                    I think you misunderstand my focus with the posting of the ordinance. What I was looking at was the words "It shall be the duty of ALL POLICEMEN to arrest all parties." As opposed to what I think... more
                    • Ben/all the wrong 'All's...'Joyce..., Mon May 21 07:17
                      Ahh! Now I get it. I apologize for the misunderstanding. However, I have to point out one or two things that are pretty regular because of the inherent tendency of most in this field to accept the... more
              • Hot headsBen Harleman, Sat May 19 17:47
                My best guess is that Virgil was in a "fed up" mind set and didn't feel that Behan was trustworthy or effective. I do, personally, think that Behan was sincere in his attempts, but I think both sides ... more
        • The Anonymous post was from me (nm) (nm)Steve Gatto, Fri May 18 07:43
    • Steve/thank you....Joyce..., Thu May 17 13:15
      I always appreciate your quiet oversight. Thank you once again. Regards, Joyce
      • Glad to have a good exchangePat Mulligan, Sun May 20 05:47
        To all, I am glad to have been able to add to this exchange. Compliments to all,especially Ben for the reasoned responses. Questions I ask now; 1. Is it possible that the defense knew of other... more
        • I would like to see some answers to this Pat Mulligan, Wed Jun 20 11:43
          how do I move my previous post to the top ? I would like to see some discussion on the questions I asked. Thank you to anyone who can help Pat
        • Staying levelBen Harleman, Sun May 20 16:58
          Hi Pat, thanks so much for the kind words. I really do try to consider everything and answer honestly, accepting that I may be right or wrong, but it's encouraging when I know that my words have been ... more
          • Ben / inquestPat Mulligan, Wed Jun 20 17:45
            I believe both sides hedged their bets expecting a trial. Too many loose ends and obvious questions left unasked. Both sides were well represented by experienced lawyers. I wish they had left their... more
            • Boy, what an amazing addition...Ben Harleman, Thu Jun 21 10:55
              ...that would be to find notes from the trial attorneys of both sides! For raising a discussion to the top, the thing I've seen done the most is posting the new additional comment in a new thread at... more
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