Tory
Neb is never Pip, ever
Mon Dec 19, 2011 04:49
112.198.78.143

No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples.

Ask anyway--unless you're afraid to. You couldn't be more wrong. A nasal is still interchangeable with a labial.

I'm asking you where this imaginary interchange of /n/ for /p/ is taking place in any of the Amarna letters that transliterate "nb"? Just go get Richard S. Hess's book on Amarna personal names and look on pages 115-118 instead of asking someone on EEF who will just tell you to go look at Hess's book. Not a single example of "nb" written as Nip. The actual examples of Egyptian "Nb" are as follows:
ni-ib-mu-u-ri-ia       EA 1:2                  from Kadašman-Enlil of Karaduniyaš
mi-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 2:1 from Kadašman-Enlil of Karaduniyaš
[...]-mu-u-ri-ia EA 3:1 from Kadašman-Enlil of Karaduniyaš
[...]i[a] EA 5:1 from Kadašman-Enlil of Karaduniyaš
ni-mu-[...] EA 6:1 from Burna-Buriyaš of Karaduniyaš
ni-ib-ḫu-ur-ri-ri-ia EA 9:1 from Burna-Buriyaš of Karaduniyaš
ni-ib-mu-u-ri-ia EA 17:1 from Tušratta of Mitanni
ni-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 19:1 from Tušratta of Mitanni
[...]-mu-u-ri-ia EA 20:1 from Tušratta of Mitanni
ni-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 22 iv 45 from Tušratta of Mitanni
ni-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 22 iv 47 from Tušratta of Mitanni
ni-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 23:1 from Tušratta of Mitanni
ni-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 24 i 84 from Tušratta of Mitanni
im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 24 iii 104 from Tušratta of Mitanni
im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 24 iii 106 from Tušratta of Mitanni
im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 24 iv 128 from Tušratta of Mitanni
mi-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 26:8-34 passim from Tušratta of Mitanni
mi-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 27:9, 13-14, 20, 38 from Tušratta of Mitanni
ni-im-mu-u-ri-ia EA 29 passim from Tušratta of Mitanni
ni-mu-wa-ri-ia EA 31:1 from Pharaoh to Tarḫundaradu of Arzawa
ni-im-ma-he-e EA 162:77 from Pharaoh to the ruler of Gubla
Study these examples carefully and you can see that the /b/ of "nb" never interchanges with a /p/.

You can also see that in the overwhelming majority of cases the /b/ of "nb" does not disappear into the next labial /m/. The /b/ of "nb" also stays put and reports to duty on time in EA 9. Now if only the Hittites had written the name in EA 9 instead of Pi-ip-ḫu-ru-ri-ia-aš. There are no examples of the the dental nasal /n/ of "nb" interchanging with /p/ to become Pib. That should be the end of the conversation.

Pi-ip-ḫu-ru-ri-ia-aš is simply not Tutankhamun's name, and that's why almost everyone who insists he is the widow's husband want to pretend the Hittites did not write Pi-ip-ḫu-ru-ri-ia-aš. That or wish it would go away. They only want to focus on the other Hittite spelling of the deceased king's name, Ni-ip-ḫu-ru-ri-ia-aš. There are no examples of "nb" becoming Pip or Nip, so the disputed Ni-ip-ḫu-ru-ri-ia-aš example cannot be invoked as the savior.

Obviously we should be looking for a name that can answer to both Pip and Nip not just one that could answer to the latter to the exclusion of the former.

And SAL.LUGAL just means "queen"--as in "king's wife". You cannot get a queen regnant out of it.

If you just want to blindly cling to your own ideas, nobody can stop you. Queen regnant has nothing to do with it. It is not always possible to know what SAL.LUGAL means when it appears in isolation. In this case it appears in association with the appellative Dahamunzu (king's wife = queen) and so the English word "queen" cannot be correct for SAL.LUGAL in this case, or else there is a strange redundancy in the Hittite text, "the queen, who is the queen...". Thus the text must mean "the female king, who is the queen..."

If the king who had just died as mentioned in the annals of Mursili could not have been Tutankhamun on a linguistic basis, a long line of language experts would never have assumed Dahamunza was Ankhesenamun.

Only takes one to get it right, whereas a 1,000 standing in line can be standing in the wrong line. I've already said enough times now that Helck is not alone in believing the Hittite spelling Ni-ip-ḫu-ru-ri-ia-aš is equivalent to Neferkheperure: ‘(m)an muß sich vor Augen halten, daß nap einem naf/nef- = nfr entspricht und nib/p einem niw/new- von nb. Der hörbare Unterschied zwischen Nfr-hprw-R' und Nb-hprw-R' war minimal – im Gegensatz zur deutlichen Verschiedenheit in der Schreibung’ (W. Helck, Ägyptologische Bemerkungen zu dem Artikel von J. Freu in “Hethitica XI 39”, Hethi-
tica 12 [1994], p. 19).

Yes I know, I know, Helck is wrong because you say so. I don't agree with Helck that "nfr" can be nib/p but if there is not enough evidence to say that he must absolutely be wrong then there is also not enough evidence to say anx-xprw-ra cannot become Pi-ip-ḫu-ru-ri-ia-aš and Ni-ip-ḫu-ru-ri-ia-aš as argued by Wilhem & Boese.

Tory

  • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Sun Dec 18 21:33
    Tory: "No one on EEF will say Egyptian "nb" becomes Pip or Bip in Akkadian transliteration. And no one will say there are examples of this because there are zero examples. The /n/ is not a labial and ... more
    • Neb is never Pip, ever — Tory, Mon Dec 19 04:49
      • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:36
        Not anybody who knows anything about linguistics. "n" can be interchangeable with "b" and "p"--easily. What about that king in Manetho's Dynasty II. He is called "Binothris"--but it's actually... more
        • Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 20:48
          Shangrila is a modern reference to Shambhala, a mythical kingdom in Tibetan Buddhist tradition, which was sought by Eastern and Western explorers and inspired a novel by a man named Hilton. Names are ... more
          • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Tory, Mon Dec 19 21:00
            Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO? Says every single foreign ruler who ever addressed a letter to Amenhotep III. That's who. Shangrila is a modern reference to Shambhala, a mythical kingdom in Tibetan ... more
            • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Tue Dec 20 10:11
              Marianne Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO? Tory: "Says every single foreign ruler who ever addressed a letter to Amenhotep III. That's who." Are you trying to say that "Piphurrias" is a reference to... more
              • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Tory, Tue Dec 20 11:14
                Are you trying to say that "Piphurrias" is a reference to Amenhotep III? I believe I was crystal clear. None of the examples we have for "Nb" in the throne name of Amenhotep III ever become Pip in... more
                • Re: Neb is never Pip, ever--SAYS WHO?Marianne Luban, Tue Dec 20 12:21
                  Marianne: "Are you trying to say that "Piphurrias" is a reference to Amenhotep III?" Tory: "I believe I was crystal clear. None of the examples we have for "Nb" in the throne name of Amenhotep III... more
      • Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:23
        Marianne: "If the king who had just died as mentioned in the annals of Mursili could not have been Tutankhamun on a linguistic basis, a long line of language experts would never have assumed... more
        • Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:55
          Marianne, Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". Hahaha. True. There goes every linguistic theory out the window. But its just a... more
        • Re: Nib is PipTory, Mon Dec 19 11:09
          Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any attested Akkadian... more
          • Re: Re: Nib is PipKim Sargerson, Tue Dec 20 11:53
            Hi all I actually tried Marianne's suggestion of "start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can." Several times. I never got "Pip". However, perhaps as interestingly, I got (a) saying it... more
            • Re: Re: Nib is PipTory, Wed Dec 21 05:51
              I actually tried Marianne's suggestion of "start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can." Several times. I never got "Pip". I never did either. But give /m/ or "Im" a go. I find it... more
              • Re: Re: Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Wed Dec 21 08:01
                Hi guys, I actually tried Marianne's suggestion of "start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can." Several times. I never got "Pip". I never did either. But give /m/ or "Im" a go. I find ... more
                • Re: Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Wed Dec 21 16:17
                  Ian: "You guys are crazy" If I were a man who thought everything in ancient Egypt had to be regulated by the moon, including when people began their reigns--I wouldn't cast stones. The point is--if... more
                  • Re: Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Sun Dec 25 14:08
                    Hi Marianne, Yes, for the ancient Egyptians and even Greeks and Jews, following lunations was of the utmost daily and monthly and yearly religious importance for a correct spiritual connection with... more
          • Re: Nib is PipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 13:49
            Marianne: "Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip"." Tory: "It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any... more
            • Re: Pip is not NbTory, Mon Dec 19 20:45
              Try this: start saying "Nib" over and over again as fast as you can. I guarantee it'll soon turn into "Pip". It's like I said, "nb" only becomes Pip in your imagination not in any attested Akkadian... more
              • Re: Pip is not NbMarc Gabolde, Fri Jun 1 08:35
                Hi Tory, Just few words for the discussion about Pip/Nip/Nib/Nap which I posted today in another discussion on ANECF concerning the king Nephersôphris known from the Suidas Byzantine Encyclopaedia.... more
                • Re: Pip is not NbTory Thorpe, Fri Jun 1 10:34
                  Hi Marc You wrote: For cuneiform Nip- as indisputable and viable alternative way to transcribe Egyptian nfr... You will not find me in disagreement with this in any of my remarks on this or other... more
                  • Niphururiria againMarc Gabolde, Fri Jun 1 16:54
                    Dear Tory, Jared MILLER, Hittitologist, in his « Amarna Age Chronology and the Identity of Nibḫururiya in the Light of a Newly Reconstructed Hittite Text », Altorientalische Forschungen 34... more
                    • Re: Niphururiria againTory Thorpe, Fri Jun 1 17:04
                      Dear Marc I would still want to see the Akkadian text of EA 9. NIP and NIB are not written exactly the same way in Akkadian cuneiform. That is not true. Miller is probably making small errors here.... more
                  • NiphururiiaMarc Gabolde, Fri Jun 1 11:44
                    Dear Tory, Only few books available on my desk, however, concerning EA 9,1 : Moran gives NiBḫurrereya, but Knudtzon I, p. 88, gives ni-ip-ḫu-ur-ri-ri-ia, R.S. Hess, Amarna Personal Names, ... more
                    • Re: NiphururiiaTory Thorpe, Fri Jun 1 16:39
                      Dear Marc Well it cannot be both NIB and NIP in EA 9, so I would very much like to know who is telling the truth. I would know who if I had access to the cuneiform text. Maybe someone does and can... more
            • Re: Nib is PipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 16:10
              Marianne says: Look, these are writing mistakes on the part of foreigners--but there is no one that could possibly match except nb-xprw-re Tutankhamun. But Marianne, by the same token you deny any... more
    • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 01:29
      Marianne, On a linguistic basis I would assume Dakhamunzu to be Ankhesenamun, but there are some nagging problems with this, the same as those with Meritaten as Dakhamunzu. She was the latest wife of ... more
      • re: Nap is not NipMarianne Luban, Mon Dec 19 10:08
        Ian: "There is no room for her after the death of Tutankhamun, since she was immediately married to Ay after the death of Tutankhamun. " How do you know? On account of that faience ring? That ring... more
        • re: Nap is not NipIan Onvlee, Mon Dec 19 15:39
          Hi Marianne, How do you know? On account of that faience ring? No, I know nothing about a faience ring, but on account of lunar dates, the overall relative chronological timeframe, available... more
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