Jaime O
Sat Dec 24, 2016 06:48

Dear Tory,

I appreciate your reply.

"If anyone can explain to me what possessed Manetho to put Σέσογχωσις, Άμμανέμου υίός ("Soshenq son of Ammanemou") in his 12th dynasty king list that would exclude my explanation, I'm all ears."

At the moment, I can't give you the alternative answer you'd expect me to give. All I can say is that your model is not the only one to offer a king Shoshenq reigning before Manetho's 22nd Dynasty, so I leave the matter open here.

To have Shoshenq I reigning in mid-21st Dynasty for so long still holds some problems, such as the age of Nesipaqashuty, who must have been beyond 100 years old under late Siamun; or Shoshenq I's absence from the Memphite genealogy of the HPPs, whereas there are only two entries between Amunemnisu and Aakheperre (Osorkon), spanning about 60 years in your chronology. Shoshenq I is also missing from Papyrus Leipzig Inv. 590; this king list is probably not the most reliable, but if you will consider Manetho to be the work of a later author from the time of Augustus, you might as well reconsider the Papyrus as antedating 'Manetho'.

"I think Makeda is none other than "the King of Upper and Lower Egypt" M3rk3ty. It is now recognized that she was a predecessor of Piankhy (see Ritner, p. 456). But I think the signs in her name on the Semna inscription are probably being read in the wrong order by scholars. It is not K3tym3r (Katimala)."

Interesting. An interesting case could be made for this, however, I've found some sites and blogs with the EKL which mention the name Hatshepsowe, thus I wrote that Makeda sounds like Maatkare to me. Velikovsky seems to have had the same idea, but it fit well his own model. Can you recommend a secure source on the EKL?

"So there is no reason to think the son of Osorkon and Tadiamon was the only one to have the name. You are right to make the Kushite Urdamane not Tanutamon but Rudamon II."

The debate of whether Urdamane is Tanutamon or not is old. Urdamane always sounded like Rudamun to me. It is known that scholars in the 1950s debated whether Urdamane should be read as Rudamun or as an error for Tanutamon. Recently, the NChronologist Jim Reilly argued similarly, although he identifies the son of Osorkon III as the same Urdamane and as father of Shabaka, not his son.

On Piye's year 40: thank you for the quotation. That changes things.

"My reconstruction does not demand that Taharqa continue his Nubian year count once he became king of the entire Kushite-Egyptian empire in 690. It just accepts the biblical and the EKL data that he became king of Kush long before he became king of Egypt and Kush."

Possible. The only objection I can raise to your Ethiopian chronology is the Shabaka-Shabitku succession order. The orthodox order holds enough problems. I'd rather have Shabaka succeeding Kashta as king in Kush while Shabataka became king in Egypt; Shabaka then succeeded Shabataka in Egypt and named a woman, Kansa, as queen of Kush, and the rest we already know. In that case, Shabataka reigned for 12 years, as Eusebius has it, instead of 26.

I came back to your post 17284, where Osorkon III/B (788-780) is equated with Iny. This simply won't work: Iny Meryamun is attested in a Year 5, while Osorkon III was recording quay texts in Years 5 and 6. We also have a flooring block (see Ritner) mentioning Nesiterpauti, daughter of Rudamun, son of Tadiamon and Osorkon III; had Osorkon III died with the name Iny, he would have been remember as Iny, not as Osorkon. Ancient Egyptians took names very seriously. I see what you are trying to do, I attempted the same before by equating Iny with Rudamun, but I ran into Nesiterpauti's inscription. In order to save this equation, I speculated that Iny was Rudamun I's birth name and the one he used until Year 5, after which he changed to 'Amun is Strong'. Osorkon III almost certainly died named Osorkon.

In all likelihood, I won't be responding to any more replies until early January, given that Christmas and New Year celebrations are close. I wish you and all the other contributors of this forum all the joys that 2017 might bring,

Best and most sincere wishes,

  • ΣέσογχωσιςTory, Thu Dec 22 21:02
    Hi Jaime: If anyone can explain to me what possessed Manetho to put Σέσογχωσις, Άμμανέμου... more
    • Sesonchosis — Jaime O, Sat Dec 24 06:48
      • Re: SesonchosisTory, Sun Dec 25 19:21
        Jaime: Nesipaqashuty. Not sure what you mean. He is not beyond 100 in later Siamun. Nesipaqashuty (i) does not make it to Siamun. The year 5 mention (burial of Neskhons) of Nesipaqashuty (i) is... more
        • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Dec 31 12:37
          Hi Tory First of all, happy new year. For you and everyone else on this forum. On Nesipaqashuty. I messed this one badly; my bad here. Thanks for clarifying. In theory, it is not impossible that... more
          • Re: SesonchosisTory, Mon Jan 2 11:14
            Hi Jaime: If he is not Shoshenq III then there are no monuments, no door jambs, no lintels, no walls, no temples, no priestly annals, no donation stelae, no geneaologies, no scarabs, no tomb, and no... more
            • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sat Jan 7 18:41
              Hi Tory, thank you for the reply. "If he is not Shoshenq III then there are no monuments, no door jambs, no lintels, no walls, no temples, no priestly annals, no donation stelae, no geneaologies, no... more
              • Re: SesonchosisKim Sargerson, Sun Jan 8 12:46
                Hi Jime, Tory In post 16339 on 7/4/2016 Tory wrote "I argue Taharqa became a real king of Kush when his father died, but king in the Kushite definition and more or less "chieftain" from the Egyptian... more
              • Re: SesonchosisRobert P. Killian, Sun Jan 8 09:15
                Jaime, Tory and Kim, Question,---was 732BC, the 13th year of the Assyrian King Tiglath-Pileser III? Question,---was 732BC, the death year of Retzin, King of Damascus? Question,---was 732BC, the death ... more
                • Re: SesonchosisJaime O, Sun Jan 8 16:10
                  Hi Bob, thank you for your questions. Allow me to respond for myself. A) 732 BCE was the 13th year of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign. It is not my belief that any dates lower that 911 BCE (Adad-Nirari... more
                  • Re SesonchosisRobert P. Killian, Mon Jan 9 00:39
                    Hi Jaime O Thanks for answering my list of questions. A) 732 BCE, was 13th year of Tiglath-Pileser III's reign. B) Retzin of Damascus died in 732 BCE. Did Pekah die too? I do have 701 BCE, for... more
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